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Author Topic:   The Common Ancestor?
barbara
Member (Idle past 3029 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 121 of 341 (585453)
10-08-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by caffeine
10-05-2010 5:26 AM


Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
If you go to this website you can plug in any combination between species and it will give you the date they split. Here are some examples:
Chimp/Human split Mitochondria 7.0 mya and nuclear 5.5 mya
Mouse/rat/Human split mitochondria 106.2 mya and nuclear 95.3 mya
Cat/Human split mitochondria 112.0 mya and nuclear 94.0 mya
Horse/Human split mitochondria 112.0 mya and nuclear 94.0 mya
Elephant/Human split mitochondria 101.6 mya and nuclear 100.2 mya
Birds/Human split mitochondria 324.9 mya and nuclear 323.6 mya

Does this make sense to anyone?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by caffeine, posted 10-05-2010 5:26 AM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 332 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 122 of 341 (585458)
10-08-2010 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by barbara
10-08-2010 11:47 AM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
What website? What's the URL?

Those all look pretty sensible, yes. What's the problem?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by barbara, posted 10-08-2010 11:47 AM barbara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by barbara, posted 10-08-2010 12:13 PM Dr Jack has responded

  
barbara
Member (Idle past 3029 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 123 of 341 (585462)
10-08-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Dr Jack
10-08-2010 11:56 AM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
Its called the Time Tree : : Timescale of Life

The confusion is that all of these critters that split with humans is indicating that we once were able to breed with these species. What would we have looked like when we split? Is this indicating that we once were a chimp, mouse, horse,, elephant or a bird in the past?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Dr Jack, posted 10-08-2010 11:56 AM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Wounded King, posted 10-08-2010 12:54 PM barbara has responded
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-08-2010 2:15 PM barbara has responded
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 10-08-2010 3:37 PM barbara has not yet responded
 Message 132 by Dr Jack, posted 10-08-2010 3:46 PM barbara has not yet responded

    
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2322 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


(1)
Message 124 of 341 (585487)
10-08-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by barbara
10-08-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
Could you clear things up for me Barbara, is the question you are asking here 'If we evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys?' or is it 'How come there are dwarfs and pygmies!!!?'.

What it indicates is that at one point in the past there existed an interbreeding population of organisms which was ancestral to both of those various pairs of species in your list but which, in most cases except perhaps for the most recent primate splits, closely resembled neither of them.

How can you still not understand enough about evolution to see how ridiculous your question here is?

There are some things it is reasonable to ask 'Did we evolve from?', but they are much higher order groupings like reptiles or fish, not Cod or Snakes.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
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barbara
Member (Idle past 3029 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 125 of 341 (585490)
10-08-2010 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Wounded King
10-08-2010 12:54 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
You might as well state that we are all related by "name unknown" ancestrial breeding pair of a mouse/Human split because we at least can identify the mouse.

This tree also has the eukaryote/bacteria split to be 2622.2 mya. How could we have split from them when we are made of bacteria from a fusion between two different species of bacteria?


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 126 of 341 (585508)
10-08-2010 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by barbara
10-08-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
The confusion is that all of these critters that split with humans is indicating that we once were able to breed with these species.

No.

What would we have looked like when we split?

We wouldn't have looked like anything, 'cos of not having evolved yet.

However, to answer the question you should have asked, the immediate descendants of the common ancestor of humans and (for example) birds would have looked like reptiles, because that's what they were.

Is this indicating that we once were a chimp, mouse, horse,, elephant or a bird in the past?

No.

Good grief.


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 Message 123 by barbara, posted 10-08-2010 12:13 PM barbara has responded

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 127 of 341 (585509)
10-08-2010 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by barbara
10-08-2010 1:06 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
You might as well state that we are all related by "name unknown" ancestrial breeding pair of a mouse/Human split because we at least can identify the mouse.

This tree also has the eukaryote/bacteria split to be 2622.2 mya. How could we have split from them when we are made of bacteria from a fusion between two different species of bacteria?

OK, you've convinced me, we're still bacteria ...

Oh, wait.

How can we not have split from them? We're vertebrates. They're blobs. Our potential for interbreeding is nil.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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barbara
Member (Idle past 3029 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 128 of 341 (585520)
10-08-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Dr Adequate
10-08-2010 2:15 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
I have absolutely no clue what common ancestry means. I do not understand when the Time Tree says a different date for mitochondria that is not the same as the nuclear date. How can they evolve separately when they are part of the same organism?

Every time I think I have a clue as to what you are talking about, someone comments and I realize that I don't. Please explain in simple language how we are all connected in terms of time frames. Many of the dates I listed were before dinosaurs went extinct and I cannot imagine anything resembling today's critters could live along with them.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 129 of 341 (585526)
10-08-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by barbara
10-08-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
The confusion is that all of these critters that split with humans is indicating that we once were able to breed with these species.

How could I have bred with any other species millions of years ago? I know I am getting older, but you are really making me self-conscious. Do I really look that old to you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by barbara, posted 10-08-2010 12:13 PM barbara has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 130 of 341 (585528)
10-08-2010 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by barbara
10-08-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
I have absolutely no clue what common ancestry means.

It means having an ancestor in common like you and your cousins have your grandparents as a common ancestor.

I do not understand when the Time Tree says a different date for mitochondria that is not the same as the nuclear date.

Different data sets. Mitochondria and the nuclear genome accumulate mutations at different rates so knowing both estimates gives us a better overall estimate.

How can they evolve separately when they are part of the same organism?

They each have their own sets of DNA polymerases and DNA error correction systems (if memory serves). This results in different rates and patterns of accumulated mutations.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 131 of 341 (585531)
10-08-2010 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by barbara
10-08-2010 1:06 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
You might as well state that we are all related by "name unknown" ancestrial breeding pair of a mouse/Human split because we at least can identify the mouse.

French, Italian, and Spanish are all descendants of the Latin language. Does this mean that at one time the Italians spoke French, or that the ancient Romans spoke Spanish? No. These languages share a common ancestor: Latin. Each language branch accumulated different changes over time resulting in three populations that can no longer understand each other's native tongue.

It is the same for us and mice. Our common ancestor was neither a mouse nor a human. When our lineages split each lineage started accumulating different changes resulting in each lineage looking less and less like the other. The END RESULT of this process is mice and humans just as the end result of the evolution of the Romance languages is French, Italian, and Spanish (amongst others).


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 332 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 132 of 341 (585532)
10-08-2010 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by barbara
10-08-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
When you reference a website, please give the link. The internet is a big place.

I take it you mean this website?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by barbara, posted 10-08-2010 12:13 PM barbara has not yet responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 332 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 133 of 341 (585534)
10-08-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by barbara
10-08-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
I have absolutely no clue what common ancestry means. I do not understand when the Time Tree says a different date for mitochondria that is not the same as the nuclear date. How can they evolve separately when they are part of the same organism?

It's a pity that website does not show the margins of error on its estimates. The separation of nuclear and mitochondrial DNA need not be exactly the same in time, but is unlikely to be as different as suggested by the figures you gave.

The primary reason for the difference is that these are estimates, they are not - and cannot be - exact dates.

Many of the dates I listed were before dinosaurs went extinct and I cannot imagine anything resembling today's critters could live along with them.

All of the major groups of mammals separated before the distinction of the dinosaurs, this does not mean that they shared features that would allow you or I to easily recognise them as the ancestors of modern groups. At the time, the largest mammals were perhaps the size of a small dog and, apparently, largely nocturnal.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2010 5:20 AM Dr Jack has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1682
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 134 of 341 (586100)
10-11-2010 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Dr Jack
10-08-2010 3:54 PM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
It's a pity that website does not show the margins of error on its estimates. The separation of nuclear and mitochondrial DNA need not be exactly the same in time, but is unlikely to be as different as suggested by the figures you gave.

Everyone keeps complaining that the website doesn't give margins of error, but it does. When you search for a split, you get a big list of molecular studies which looked at that split. Each has the estimate and the margin of error. The numbers at the top are just mean averages of all the different studies put together.


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 Message 133 by Dr Jack, posted 10-08-2010 3:54 PM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 332 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 135 of 341 (586105)
10-11-2010 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by caffeine
10-11-2010 5:20 AM


Re: Time Tree : : Timescale of Life
Ah, yes, if you mouse-over the estimates given in each study you get a margin of error on some of them. I'd missed that.

Not exactly front and centre though, is it?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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