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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 123 of 479 (557772)
04-27-2010 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peepul
10-12-2009 1:29 PM


The very next passage
Peepul, these two verses are a direct lead-in to the Transfiguration which begins in the very next verse, Matthew 17:1-13. The Transfiguration is a blatant picture of the coming of the kingdom in power. Moses and Elijah are the two prominent figures of the Old Testament--two who very clearly prefigure Christ as pale reflections of the greatness that was to come.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


(1)
Message 131 of 479 (558869)
05-05-2010 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by gragbarder
05-01-2010 2:00 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
Gragbarder, you left out a little bit of Matthew 24:27-34.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
A couple of things here. First of all, the vv. 28-29 absolutely are talking about the crucifixion, which you left out, and they absolutely did happen. Secondly, "coming" in Greek is the same word as "going," so it could easily refer to the Ascension (but it does not need to, either, as I will show). Thirdly, I don't think it could be defended that v.31 was fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation in Jesus' time, but again the Greek word does not only mean generation. It also means "race," "age," or "period of time." Go grab a Greek lexicon.
In summation, vv. 28-29 are clearly talking about the crucifixion event, and vv. 30-33 are most likely speaking of what is repeated in Revelation on the Eschaton.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 133 of 479 (558917)
05-05-2010 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Peepul
05-05-2010 11:21 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
I think I would rather take a different angle than the (perhaps) mumbo-jumbo I just threw up there. I really was playing off of v.28, which is a reference to the crucifixion (the corpse), but that clearly should be taken a past reference in the time frame of what Matthew is writing about here.
Go to v.3 to get some context. "As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"
Read from v.4 down through v.34. Jesus does not actually answer the question of "when," which Jesus Himself did not claim to know but which remained only in the mind of the Father (Acts 1:6-8). In fact, skip all the way down to v.36 to see that JESUS HIMSELF in this very passage did not even claim to know the time much less to be answering the question of "when." How, then, could Jesus' use of "genea" (generation, age, race, etc.) have been a time frame qualifier?

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 448 of 479 (585004)
10-05-2010 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by gragbarder
05-06-2010 11:36 PM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
First time back on the forum in...hmm, long time it seems. I am not about to read 300 posts to try to get caught back up, hah. But I do want to reply to my respondent.
Citing the KJV is not a good way to promote your Biblical scholarship. It is an outdated translation based on inferior manuscripts. There is a very clear reason that the modern translations include "nor the Son:" superior manuscript support.
On a second note, you are missing the point of the dialogue between Jesus and his disciples in vv.3-4. Jesus is not revealing to them that this will occur some time between 30 AD and 70 AD (although 70 AD was quite an interesting time for the people of Jerusalem). Jesus is not giving anything away at all about the exact time in history in which this would be taking place. When he speaks of "this generation" not passing away, he is speaking of the generation in which all of the signs begin to take place. The disciples certainly should have taken that as possibly referring to their generation, just as we should certainly take heed of the possibility of ours. But the bare fact is that we do not know when this is to take place. What will it look like? Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, etc. Believers will be killed in number for their faith. False Christs will come. Watch for the abomination that causes desolation. I think it is quite logical to think we may not be all that far from this time...

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 Message 136 by gragbarder, posted 05-06-2010 11:36 PM gragbarder has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by gragbarder, posted 10-05-2010 4:34 AM DPowell has replied
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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 449 of 479 (585005)
10-05-2010 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by gragbarder
05-07-2010 5:36 PM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
Book of Matthew...28 chapters.
3 years of Jesus' life.
At this point, 2,000+ years of men to address.
Not.
Every.
Passage.
Addresses.
The Same Event.
Most of the ones you quoted were about the Second Coming. The original poster's question (on Matthew 16:27-28) asked about one specific pericope, which is in direct reference to the immediately subsequent pericope, the Transfiguration. The Transfiguration is a picture of Jesus in His fully glorified state of Son of God. Moses and Elijah, two Old Testament giants, come to meet (and to worship?) the glorified Son. This is a complete and coherent answer to the initial question.
I addressed Matthew 24 elsewhere. It speaks of the Second Coming, which will occur at a time unknown even to angels and the Son of God Himself (Matthew 24:36). Jesus describes the times of that generation, but He does not actually pinpoint the generation in history. That information belongs only to the Father.
Edited by DPowell, : No reason given.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 457 of 479 (585256)
10-06-2010 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by hERICtic
10-05-2010 5:16 PM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
Your point is taken for what it does actually address, but I think it is fair to maintain Matthew 16 as a special case, specifically because in the literary sense it is followed by immediate fulfillment in Matthew 17 of what was spoken in Matthew 16. Jesus said that there were those who would see the coming of His glory before they tasted death...they certainly did on Mount Horeb (Sinai). The OT giants (Moses and Elijah) that joined them there had had similar meetings with God on Horeb/Sinai in the Old Testament. Go check into the meetings of God with Moses on that same mountain in Exodus 34 and Elijah in 1 Kings 19. This time on the mountain it is Peter's, James', and John's turns to experience the coming of the glory of God.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 458 of 479 (585257)
10-06-2010 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by gragbarder
10-05-2010 4:39 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
I simply have to disagree with you on that one. Not much else to be said.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 459 of 479 (585260)
10-06-2010 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by gragbarder
10-05-2010 4:34 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
My point about the KJV was that it was the only translation that did what you wanted it to do. The modern translations do not go that route. Sorry, I should not have slighted you there--clearly, you're an analytical guy.
As to why Jesus said "this" generation as opposed to "that" generation in Matthew 24, I would say a couple of things: First, according to vv. 36-39, Jesus does not claim to be speaking in specifics with regard to times and dates; second, Jesus says "this generation" because it is the specific generation of which He has been speaking for 20-something verses. Koine Greek is a little freer in its movement between cases and tenses than you and I might be if we were writing this all in 21st century English. Remember, additionally, that Jesus would not have been speaking this in either English or Greek, but Aramaic, so we are kind of getting this third-hand. This stuff aside, look at the movement between past tenses (v.32), future tenses (the majority of the verbs), and present tenses (vv.6, 8, 16) in the verbs. There are aorist (generally speaking in the past) tense verbs translated in the past, some translated in the present, but all speaking toward the future, etc.
All of this must bear in mind one very important disclaimer: This is one of Jesus' cryptic sayings. Any reading/interpretation must be taken with a grain of salt. I would not bet my salvation on my interpretation of very many prophetic passages, hah. If things like a "this" where you think it should be a "that" are enough to drive you to call Jesus a false prophet, then I guess there is little else for me to say. Sorry, that is about the best I can do for you.
On Matthew 16, you are right. Jesus absolutely was speaking to His present generation; the fulfillment of that comes in the subsequent chapter, Matthew 17 at the Transfiguration.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 460 of 479 (585262)
10-06-2010 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by ringo
10-05-2010 1:45 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
On the issue of "this" generation versus "that" generation, go with me for just a bit. Picture yourself talking to your best friend about a crazy thing that happened to you the other day. Some guy rear-ends your car; it was her fault, but gets out of her car hopping mad at you. You proceed to tell your friend, "And I mean this guy was ticked off!" You (a guy) are talking to a friend (a guy) about a third guy. When you say "this guy," are you talking about the guy to whom you are speaking or the one from the story? Clearly the one from the story you are telling.
I don't know. Does this all make sense for you, or are you still hung up on an issue of "this" generation and "that" generation?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by ringo, posted 10-07-2010 12:49 AM DPowell has replied

  
DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 462 of 479 (585272)
10-07-2010 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by ringo
10-07-2010 12:49 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
You're missing it, because you are projecting onto Jesus' words who you think "this generation" is.
Edit: I understand that from your vantage point you will be saying the same thing about me, but I would encourage you to go look at fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy...it is not always what seems most obvious on the surface. Prophetic literature is very, very tricky ground to till.
Edited by DPowell, : No reason given.
Edited by DPowell, : No reason given.

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 Message 466 by jar, posted 10-07-2010 10:24 AM DPowell has replied

  
DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 467 of 479 (585514)
10-08-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by hERICtic
10-07-2010 5:21 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
"This was not fulfilled in Matthew 17. Where are the angels in Matthew 17? Rewarding every man refers to the "end". When did this occur in Matthew 17? Of those standing there, who died?"
hERICtic, I think there are a few ways to deal with this discrepancy. I will list off a few here. I am not claiming to be an expert on the Book of Matthew or the Transfiguration itself, but here are some thoughts.
One answer would be to that "the Son of man coming in his kingdom" is not a reference to the Transfiguration or to the Second Coming of Revelation, but rather to the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost in the Book of Acts. Here is a quick snippet from Matthew Henry's commentary:

At the end of time, he shall come in his Father's glory; but now, in the fulness of time, he was to come in his own kingdom, his mediatorial kingdom. Some little specimen was given of his glory a few days after this, in his transfiguration (ch. xvii. 1); then he tried his robes. But this points at Christ's coming by the pouring out of his Spirit, the planting of the gospel church, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the taking away of the place and nation of the Jews, who were the most bitter enemies to Christianity. Here was the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Many then present lived to see it, particularly John, who lived till after the destruction of Jerusalem, and saw Christianity planted in the world.

In this view, the Transfiguration is still involved as a pointer to the Big Event still to come in the pouring out of the Spirit, although it is not the full and complete answer to it in itself.
Another possibility would be that verse 28 is a transition between the eschatological prophecy in 16:27 and Chapter 17. In this view, verse 28 would not be referring to the ultimate consummation of history, as 16:27 is. Verse 27 would be the answer to a prospective disciple's quandary, "Is it all worth it?" Jesus' words in vv.24-26 would be quite hard to swallow, so verse 27 comes in to say that there will be recompense for all of the toils of discipleship. Verse 28, then, is sort of a "deposit, guaranteeing what is to come," the promise of a taste of what is to come, this being fulfilled in the Transfiguration. The angels, the reward--this stuff belongs to the Eschaton of verse 27, just like you said. But "some standing here" get a taste of what it all will be like in the Transfiguration.
I think this second possibility sounds better to me. Got any thoughts?
Edit: I am not a preterist, but that viewpoint would say that a good portion of what was prophesied to occur did happen in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. That is not my view.
Edited by DPowell, : No reason given.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 468 of 479 (585518)
10-08-2010 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by hERICtic
10-07-2010 5:35 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
What is the handy-dandy cut/paste tool for this website? I am not sure how to quote the guy I'm responding to without pains.
Anyway, hERICtic, I think that "you" is addressed to the reader. Check out verse 15. I believe Jesus was fully capable of knowing who his audience was/would be. Bear in mind that He is speaking prophetically, which means we have to be very, very careful trying to pinpoint precisely whom/what He refers to in every case.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 469 of 479 (585519)
10-08-2010 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by jar
10-07-2010 10:24 AM


Re: are there any real fulfilled Biblical prophecies?
Jar, I am completely with you on the need for a good prophecy/fulfillment thread. I myself am not knowledgeable enough in the area to speak with any authority. Maybe/hopefully there is someone in the community with expertise in this area.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 475 of 479 (586195)
10-11-2010 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by hERICtic
10-09-2010 5:02 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
hERICtic (I'm guessing real name Eric? I'm David, btw), let me start out with a question: Is the Kingdom here now or is it still to come? I think this answer is crucial to interpreting v.28.
Based on my understanding of the Kingdom, I think it is fair to differentiate between the "coming" of v.27 and the "coming" of v.28 as distinct events. I see room for more than one interpretation of this passage, but the one I guess I seem to be gravitating to is that v.27 refers to the Second Coming, just as you have said, while v.28 is referring to something prior, which was accomplished in the time of "some still standing here." I think this refers either to the Transfiguration or Pentecost, or both.
As to the idea of who "you" refers to, I suppose I would take it to refer to all believers of all times, including both the disciples there that day and Christians throughout the rest of history. Think of the letters of Paul. He wrote 1&2 Corinthians to the believers in Corinth of his day; he wrote Ephesians to the believers in Ephesus of his day; he wrote Philippians to the believers in Philippi of his day, etc. Are the words of those texts applicable only to the first physical audience of his letters? Surely not. What was written/spoken to them was for us as well.
Matthew 25:31-33 certainly references the End Time (Second Coming), as you say.
Again, I think it is very treacherous in trying to nail down specifics in relation to interpreting prophecy...it just isn't easy or obvious. You may be fully convinced of your interpretations; I urge you to hold onto them loosely--this stuff can be slippery.
Sorry if I left anything unaddressed.

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 Message 472 by hERICtic, posted 10-09-2010 5:02 AM hERICtic has replied

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 476 of 479 (586201)
10-11-2010 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by jar
10-08-2010 3:40 PM


Re: are there any real fulfilled Biblical prophecies?
There are numerous Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the events of the New Testament. A good quick link here: http://www.bprc.org/topics/fulfill.html
The OT prophecy of the restoration of the nation of Israel we may have seen fulfilled in 1947/1948.
The promise of God to Abraham that from him a slew of nations would spring forth has proven true.
The enmity between Isaac (Judaism, Christianity) and Ishmael (Islam) continues to our time.
I am arguing over the duration of this thread that Matthew 16:28 may have been fulfilled by one or both of the events of the Transfiguration or Pentecost. I believe preterists says this was fulfilled in some way in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Biblical "prophecy," in a sense, concerning the condition of the human heart/human nature has held consistently true over the passage of time from ancient times into our modern day--I think that in itself is worth something. From the Enlightenment, it has been en vogue to think of man as basically good/moral. The ultimate intrinsic wickedness/selfishness of each of our hearts is pretty clear, isn't it?
There is, of course, a good deal of NT prophecy that is fulfilled within the confines of the NT itself (e.g. The Passion Week, The Giving of the Spirit at Pentecost, the Scattering of the Disciples).
One example of prophecy that I think we still see in process is the gospel being preached to every nation on the planet...we're almost there. And we are told that when this goes down, there is quite a bit in store in the near future...
Again, I am no expert in prophecy, so there may be a great deal more than what I have listed here, but here is at least a sampling.

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