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Author Topic:   Evolving the Musculoskeletal System
Percy
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Posts: 20113
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 346 of 527 (586308)
10-12-2010 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Strongbow
10-12-2010 1:07 PM


Re: Entropy
Strongbow writes:

Some mutations can be beneficial and result in INCREASED level of "organization." Mutations can bcome incorporated, or alter a gene function and improve an organism's chances to reproduce as compared to its peers. THAT'S HOW EVOLUTION WORKS!!!! But the increased function still reflects an INCREASE in entropy. It's counter-intiuitive if you think of entropy as a measure of "disorder" in a layman's sense, but that's how it works.

Whether or not any particular mutation increased or decreased entropy would be difficult to say. Probably any string of N random nucleotides has about the same entropy. In other words, a single nucleotide substitution wouldn't be expected to have much effect on entropy. On the other hand, additions and deletions probably do result in meaningful entropy changes.

But the bottom line for Barbara is that entropy is a very poor and incredibly difficult way to make any judgments about what is possible in biology. Plus I'm not sure it ties into the topic.

--Percy


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Strongbow
Junior Member (Idle past 3811 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-16-2010


Message 347 of 527 (586332)
10-12-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Percy
10-12-2010 1:35 PM


Re: Entropy
Percy writes:

Whether or not any particular mutation increased or decreased entropy would be difficult to say. Probably any string of N random nucleotides has about the same entropy. In other words, a single nucleotide substitution wouldn't be expected to have much effect on entropy. On the other hand, additions and deletions probably do result in meaningful entropy changes.

OK, last aside.... but I think that a substitution type mutation WOULD increase entropy on a species wide perspective since it would increase variation of the gene within the space under consideration. But I'm a little out of my lane here, so I'll let the entropy experts chime in.

To relate this to the topic....

I've noticed that a lot of these threads tend to degenerate into the basic arguments about whether the selection of mutations that are beneficial to the organism is even possible... and the 2nd Law of Thermo is one of the oldest anti-evolution red herrings in the book. In order to discuss what mutations allow the musculoskeletal system to arise, and how they could be selected for, you have to accept the basic principal of mutation and selection. Many cdesign proponentists can't accept that premise, even to discuss the details of a specific issue. Thus ENTROPY.

Edited by Strongbow, : No reason given.


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Nij
Member (Idle past 3790 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 348 of 527 (586381)
10-12-2010 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Strongbow
10-12-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Entropy
OK, last aside.... but I think that a substitution type mutation WOULD increase entropy on a species wide perspective since it would increase variation of the gene within the space under consideration.

It would not increase the entropy.

Entropy is an energy-related property. Variation is not.
The amount of entropy in a system has absolutely nothing to do with the variation in a particular species (i.e. the number of different base pairs at a particular locus).

It really does not require an expert understanding. It's as simple as the fact that one does not affect the other at all.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 349 of 527 (586386)
10-12-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Strongbow
10-12-2010 1:14 PM


Re: Entropy
As the possible states of a system increase, so does the entropy. Let's look at some examples.

a: 000
b: 0000000

Item b in the above example has more entropy.

next example:

a: 0000000 (can ONLY be 0)
b: 0000000 (each digit can only be 0 or 1)

Again, b has the greater entropy

Now the last one
a: 0000000
b: 1011001

Again, B has the greater entropy. B is clearly more complex as well.

Is that clearer? Still disagree?

Yes, I disagree. Because this has damn-all to do with thermodynamics.


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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 368 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 350 of 527 (586392)
10-13-2010 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Dr Adequate
10-12-2010 11:42 PM


Re: Entropy
Because this has damn-all to do with thermodynamics.

Thermodynamic entropy isn't the only entropy that exists. This is an example of information entropy.


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Strongbow
Junior Member (Idle past 3811 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-16-2010


Message 351 of 527 (586414)
10-13-2010 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Dr Adequate
10-12-2010 11:42 PM


Re: Entropy
quote:
Yes, I disagree. Because this has damn-all to do with thermodynamics.

Well, it IS related to thermodynamics, if only through the concept of Entropy.... in this case, the so-called "Shannon Entropy" which the ID pronents are always trying to reference.

I could be wrong (like I said, it's been years), but I believe Shannon thought his expression of "information" Entropy was merely another expression of Statistical Thermodynaic Entropy. That's why he used the term "entropy" to beguin with.

Edited by Strongbow, : No reason given.


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Strongbow
Junior Member (Idle past 3811 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-16-2010


Message 352 of 527 (586415)
10-13-2010 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Nij
10-12-2010 11:00 PM


Re: Entropy
Nij writes:

It would not increase the entropy.
Entropy is an energy-related property. Variation is not.
The amount of entropy in a system has absolutely nothing to do with the variation in a particular species (i.e. the number of different base pairs at a particular locus).

It really does not require an expert understanding. It's as simple as the fact that one does not affect the other at all.

I think it's m ore complicated than that... what about Shannon Entropy?


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20113
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 353 of 527 (586422)
10-13-2010 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by Strongbow
10-13-2010 7:49 AM


Re: Entropy
Strongbow writes:

I think it's more complicated than that... what about Shannon Entropy?

If you're counting states at the atomic and molecular level, which is 2LOT, then entropy is inappropriate for reaching an understanding of random mutation and selection.

If you're counting states at the nucleotide level, which is Shannon information, then Shannon entropy is applicable and very appropriate. See, for example, Message 152 for a post that approaches this in a similar way as you did, but using bits instead of entropy.

--Percy


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1006 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 354 of 527 (586424)
10-13-2010 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by barbara
10-11-2010 6:23 PM


Re: Entropy
Yes, you are correct in that it is what I meant to say. The environment does not decay DNA to a less organized level as a function of time. Correct?

DNA, separated from the machinery that maintains its integrity in the cell will degrade over time, yes. And the ways in which in does so relate to the second law of thermodynamics but, of course, if the second law didn't operate in the first place DNA would not form or stay together in the first place


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Strongbow
Junior Member (Idle past 3811 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-16-2010


Message 355 of 527 (586427)
10-13-2010 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Percy
10-13-2010 8:12 AM


Re: Entropy
Yes, I mean at the nucleotide level. I'm not even close to following things at the atomic and molecular level.... I've always had to work hard at chemistry!

Thanks for the link.... yes your post ther is along the lines of what I was getting at.


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 356 of 527 (586507)
10-13-2010 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Strongbow
10-12-2010 1:14 PM


Re: Entropy
Strongbow writes:

a: 000
b: 0000000
Item b in the above example has more entropy.

I disagree. For example if these are bit streams in which the next bit is always zero, the streams have the same entropy.


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Taq
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


(1)
Message 357 of 527 (586508)
10-13-2010 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Strongbow
10-13-2010 8:56 AM


Re: Entropy
Yes, I mean at the nucleotide level. I'm not even close to following things at the atomic and molecular level.... I've always had to work hard at chemistry!

Enzymes that repair DNA usually require a cofactor. These cofactors are usually energetic molecules like ATP or NADH that are produced by the active metabolism of the cell (which is derived from the energetic oxygen in the atmosphere which has been derived from energetic photons from the sun). So in keeping with the 2 LoT it does require energy input into the system to decrease entropy and that energy can all be traced back to the massive amounts of energy being deposited on the Earth by the Sun.


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barbara
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 358 of 527 (588548)
10-26-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Taq
10-13-2010 4:24 PM


Re: Entropy
Aging is a perfect example that we degrade over time. Entropy works by breaking us down over time where fitness decreases, diseases emerge, and we witness our own decay in the process.

This is chaotic to me and our structure definitely becomes disorganized until we die.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20113
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 359 of 527 (588555)
10-26-2010 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by barbara
10-26-2010 2:13 PM


Re: Entropy
barbara writes:

Aging is a perfect example that we degrade over time.

Really. And as you aged from 0 to 20, were you also degrading over time? As a baby grows in the womb, is it degrading over time? As sperm and egg combine to form an embryo, are they degrading over time?

Also, unless you can somehow tie entropy in with evolution of the musculoskeletal system, you're off-topic.

--Percy


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barbara
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 360 of 527 (588556)
10-26-2010 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
08-29-2010 3:07 PM


Genome Project.
Currently they cannot identify genes that express what the organism will produce in traits or features that makes it unique. Right now the data base is being built by comparing healthy individuals with people with known diseases or defects in structure by observing differences in sequences.

The common similarities of genes in species is that the structural and functional proteins is the same in all creatures. They do not know what mechanism actually is involved in what determines what the creature will look like.


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 Message 50 by Percy, posted 08-29-2010 3:07 PM Percy has responded

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