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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 136 of 296 (522110)
09-01-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by iano
09-01-2009 7:58 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
quote:
They don't truly understand God. They understand sufficient of God to understand that they want and need more of God.
That's religion talking. They aren't allowed to understand God.
quote:
Haven't you forgotten another stage in the above process - which you suppose to parallel the eternal kingdom? Death. If death isn't a part of God's kingdom then why suppose adulthood?
Ah the afterlife. I'm not talking about the afterlife. Jesus made it clear that all will be different in the afterlife. I'm talking about current physical life. An all powerful God shouldn't have to spoonfeed his followers.
quote:
Besides, the picture isn't that we don't grow - it's just that we can never become God: he'll always be more powerful, always wiser, always the one who provides the sustenance which we need.
I agree we can't become God and that God will always be more powerful than us. I agree that God is what sustains us.
quote:
The picture given from Hebrew times is one where the son, on engagement, builds an dwelling onto his fathers house and comes back with his bride to reside under his fathers roof.
Source please. The son may be under his father's roof, but does he function as an adult or a child?
quote:
I think you'll find logic to the contrary inescapable. Unless you suppose we can get around to sustaining ourselves. Or perhaps get to looking after God in his dotage
God sustains us, not religion. Religion keeps people needing religion, not God.
Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 7:58 AM iano has not replied

  
Aware Wolf
Member (Idle past 1420 days)
Posts: 156
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 137 of 296 (522126)
09-01-2009 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
09-01-2009 7:49 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
Aware Wolf writes:
Oh, well, in that case, let the sonuvabitches burn.
iano writes:
They will. But in the meantime the instruction is to tell them that they don't have to.
But why? Seems to be six in one half dozen in the other, since if they end up in Hell, I'll end up considering that to be appropriate. As long as I get mine, what's the difference?
Edited by Aware Wolf, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 7:49 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 11:06 AM Aware Wolf has replied
 Message 144 by kongstad, posted 09-02-2009 4:47 PM Aware Wolf has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 138 of 296 (522292)
09-02-2009 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Aware Wolf
09-01-2009 10:29 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
Aware Wolf writes:
But why? Seems to be six in one half dozen in the other, since if they end up in Hell, I'll end up considering that to be appropriate. As long as I get mine, what's the difference?
??
Warning someone that the path they are wandering leads (you know but they don't yet) to a horrific destination and them choosing to ignore you doesn't mean you shouldn't warn them.
It's as appropriate I end there as they except that I was warned. All the more reason to warn them - appropriate as it is they end up there if they indeed do.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Aware Wolf, posted 09-01-2009 10:29 AM Aware Wolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Aware Wolf, posted 09-02-2009 1:12 PM iano has replied
 Message 141 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-02-2009 1:41 PM iano has not replied

  
Aware Wolf
Member (Idle past 1420 days)
Posts: 156
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 139 of 296 (522313)
09-02-2009 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by iano
09-02-2009 11:06 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
It seems like you are trying to have it both ways, although I will admit I am making some assumptions about your position to reach that conclusion; maybe you can set me straight. Let me re-post your paragraph from message XYZ:
iono writes:
I wouldn't concern myself about spending an eternity with God whilst currently loved ones perish in hell. That which makes a person attractive and good and worthwhile and loveable is the image of God in which they are made: God is good and worthwhile and attractive and loveable. That image will be removed from the person before they are cast into the pit. All that will remain attaching to them is the horror of their evil. There would be nothing about them to love anymore.
I take this to mean that you believe that we will not feel regret or sorrow or any other negative emotion from the fact that our (previous) loved ones are in Hell. I further assume that you believe that this is because there truly is no basis to feel those emotions, as opposed to God having taken away our memories or something similar.
OK, if my assumptions of your position are wrong, I apologize and you can ignore the rest of my post.
However, if this is your position, then I believe you ARE trying to have it both ways. If our heavenly selves know that there is nothing regrettable or sad about loved ones in Hell, then why should our present selves think any different?
To look at it from the other angle: if we presently SHOULD want our loved ones to surrender to God and avoid Hell, then that means that their being in Heaven is somehow better than being in Hell. And so if it turns out that it doesn’t happen that way, then that will be a reason for regret.
Edited by Aware Wolf, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 11:06 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 1:40 PM Aware Wolf has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 140 of 296 (522320)
09-02-2009 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Aware Wolf
09-02-2009 1:12 PM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
Aware Wolf writes:
I take this to mean that you believe that we will not feel regret or sorrow or any other negative emotion from the fact that our (previous) loved ones are in Hell. I further assume that you believe that this is because there truly is no basis to feel those emotions, as opposed to God having taken away our memories or something similar.
Agreed
However, this is your position, then I believe you ARE trying to have it both ways. If our heavenly selves know that there is nothing regrettable or sad about loved ones in Hell, then why should our present selves think any different?
Rather than having things both ways I'm forced to approach things from what I experience as a human in this space and time. And what the cold mechanical aspects of theology tell me.
Firstly and for correctness sake; our loved one's won't be in Hell because our loved one's won't exist anymore. An essential element of the current 'them' will be missing.
Secondly, I won't be in heaven because I, as I am, won't exist anymore. An essential element in the current me will be missing (namely that which is unholy about me)
From my perspective now I can be sad at the thought of someone I love being in danger of being destroyed. I'm not in heaven yet and don't have a heavens-perspective to apply experientially to the matter. I can only apply the dry theological reality of things and it's impossible now to imagine what my sister would look like with all that is good about her gone.
To look at it from the other angle: if we presently SHOULD want our loved ones to surrender to God and avoid Hell, then that means that their being in Heaven is somehow better than being in Hell. And so if it turns out that it doesn’t happen that way, then that will be a reason for regret.
I'm not quite sure if my clarification about who and what-of-whom will be in heaven/hell answers this. I'm on the fly at the moment but will give it some thought. There appears to be some kind of dilemma in there somewhere but I'm not sure if I'm getting what it is.
Later

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Aware Wolf, posted 09-02-2009 1:12 PM Aware Wolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Perdition, posted 09-02-2009 3:12 PM iano has not replied
 Message 143 by Aware Wolf, posted 09-02-2009 3:33 PM iano has not replied
 Message 145 by Modulous, posted 09-03-2009 2:37 AM iano has not replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 141 of 296 (522322)
09-02-2009 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by iano
09-02-2009 11:06 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
??
Warning someone that the path they are wandering leads (you know but they don't yet) to a horrific destination and them choosing to ignore you doesn't mean you shouldn't warn them.
It's as appropriate I end there as they except that I was warned. All the more reason to warn them - appropriate as it is they end up there if they indeed do.
Yes, but why should the warned person actually believe your warning? They get enough grief from the other 2/3 of the world that aren't Christian anyway. Why should they believe that they need to repent to Jesus when doing so will somehow piss off Vishnu?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 11:06 AM iano has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 142 of 296 (522332)
09-02-2009 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
09-02-2009 1:40 PM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
Sorry to jump in, but this seemed to need an answer:
From my perspective now I can be sad at the thought of someone I love being in danger of being destroyed.
Secondly, I won't be in heaven because I, as I am, won't exist anymore. An essential element in the current me will be missing (namely that which is unholy about me.
So, both of us are going to be destroyed, so what does it matter to me either way? If I'm not going to be in heaven or Hell b ecause either way, an essential part of me is being removed, then, to put it bluntly, fuck it all, let's have fun while we're here!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 1:40 PM iano has not replied

  
Aware Wolf
Member (Idle past 1420 days)
Posts: 156
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 143 of 296 (522336)
09-02-2009 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
09-02-2009 1:40 PM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
iano writes:
From my perspective now I can be sad at the thought of someone I love being in danger of being destroyed. I'm not in heaven yet and don't have a heavens-perspective to apply experientially to the matter. I can only apply the dry theological reality of things and it's impossible now to imagine what my sister would look like with all that is good about her gone.
Well yes, but what I am saying is that IF the idea that (previous) loved ones are in Hell (or half destroyed and the rest in Hell, whatever) will NOT truly be a reason for regret, sadness, etc., then it is not an outcome that we have any reason to try and avoid. If something is to be avoided, then by definition if it isn't avoided there is justification for regret.
iano writes:
There appears to be some kind of dilemma in there somewhere but I'm not sure if I'm getting what it is.
I think there is; hopefully your confusion is not just my ability to explain it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 1:40 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by barbara, posted 10-14-2010 4:58 PM Aware Wolf has not replied

  
kongstad
Member (Idle past 2870 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 144 of 296 (522350)
09-02-2009 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Aware Wolf
09-01-2009 10:29 AM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
Nick Cave, Idiot Prayer writes:
If you're in Heaven then you'll forgive me, dear
Because that's what they do up there
If you're in Hell, then what can I say
You probably deserved in anyway
I guess I'm gunna find out any day
For we'll meet again
And there'll be Hell to pay
I like the way you think Wolf, it reminds me of the above lyrics from Nick Cave

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Aware Wolf, posted 09-01-2009 10:29 AM Aware Wolf has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 145 of 296 (522369)
09-03-2009 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
09-02-2009 1:40 PM


Topic?
Trying to square the concept of Hell with Christian Theology is interesting and all, but perhaps it deserves a topic in its own right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 1:40 PM iano has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 146 of 296 (581767)
09-17-2010 12:36 PM


Bump
Since the topic came up in Existence After Death I thought I'd bump this old thread. The topic in the other thread is about how life after death may be obtained as well as the question of what matters in survival - but the related subject 'would I want it anyway?' is often not far behind...

  
barbara
Member (Idle past 4802 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 147 of 296 (586765)
10-14-2010 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Aware Wolf
09-02-2009 3:33 PM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
Why would anybody want to be in Heaven with an irresponsible parent who left his children alone in a garden with a serpent? Would you leave your children with a child molester?
Then to top it all off, God blames it on his children instead of realizing that children are impressionable just like we are today as adults. Brainwashing is a commonly used method in society and this is used to control the herd (humans). Dysfunction is God's invention and God is dysfunctional.
Why would I want eternal life knowing this? No Thanks!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Aware Wolf, posted 09-02-2009 3:33 PM Aware Wolf has not replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 148 of 296 (586769)
10-14-2010 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by barbara
10-14-2010 4:58 PM


Re: Choosing to be unable to choose ... for sin.
at least that points to god being a man, a woman could never fuc.... up like that.
can you imagine an eternal life how long would it take for you to get bored 1000, 10 000, 100 000 years, and how many years would it take for you to go insane there is only so much you can do. and the way christians describe it you are sitting on a cloud and you play the harp talk about getting bored in days.
and if you are married holy shit do you realy want to listen to your wife for eternaty non stop while she is back seat harping.
and no (sex, drugs, fornication) all the fun gets sucked out of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by barbara, posted 10-14-2010 4:58 PM barbara has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 149 of 296 (586800)
10-14-2010 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by frako
10-14-2010 5:24 PM


Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
quote:
Everyone is trying to get to the bar.
The name of the bar, the bar is called Heaven.
The band in Heaven plays my favorite song.
They play it once again, they play it all night long.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
There is a party, everyone is there.
Everyone will leave at exactly the same time.
Its hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, and so much fun.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
When this kiss is over it will start again.
It will not be any different, it will be exactly the same.
It's hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, could be so much fun.
Heaven is a place where nothing every happens
Heaven is a place where nothing every happens
-Talking Heads

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by frako, posted 10-14-2010 5:24 PM frako has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 150 of 296 (586805)
10-14-2010 11:38 PM


I browsed through some of this thread, and at first I got the impression that here were a number of posters musings about what they think they might enjoy or not enjoy in a completely different eternal state of mind and body unimaginable to humans in their present place of earthly existence. I was actually getting concerned for my own sanity, because I was sure I was awake while I was reading this, and I was pretty sure that the people who were writing about the state of mind they would have in this unfathomable realm were also fully conscious and experiencing the limits of our world the same as I.
And then I finally exhaled with a great sigh of understanding, when I finally realized that no, it can not be possible that anyone, with even the least imagination or reasoning skills necessary to perform just the rudimentary requirements of life such as preparing food, or bathing one's self, could possibly be so delusional as to believe that they could forecast their state of mind in an unknowable state. No no, this could not be the present reality; that people are actually sitting in their chairs deciding what they might prefer in an ethereal afterlife, like squids contemplate perestroika. Wham! I had to hit myself rather stoutly with this frying pan to my forehead to jolt myself out of this nonsensical hallucination.
How odd though, that the frying pan smack still hurt like hell. I had thought that cracking virtual frying pans to the skull would hurt a lot less and produce much less bruising in a dream state than it does in reality (boy was I wrong!) Oh well, at least I still have this text in front of me, to confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that none of this silliness could possibly be real. The lucidity of my dreams is fascinating though.

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by crashfrog, posted 10-15-2010 1:43 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 153 by Modulous, posted 10-15-2010 3:42 AM Bolder-dash has replied

  
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