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Author Topic:   Evolution of Altruism
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3985
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


(1)
Message 11 of 103 (585716)
10-09-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 9:09 AM


Stephen Push writes:
Kin selection doesn't explain such behavior, because non-kin are often the beneficiaries. Reciprocal altruism might explain it, but that seems to be a stretch when a young man who has not had an opportunity to reproduce sacrifices his life for others.
I'm not confident of the existence of altruism.
That aside, I don't see why benefits accruing to non-kin would mean that kin selection fails as an explanation. We have many behaviors that have been modified by different social contexts--fight-or-flight evolved far back in our lineage, but it still serves many well in the boardroom and badminton court, far short of tooth and claw.
Also, the notion of kin has certainly expanded. Our ancestors never had the opportunity to die for a nation; there were no nations. Some folks risk their lives to protect whales, precisely because of their sense of kinship with a big-brained mammal.
You are making a large assumption in your dismissal of reciprocal altruism: any man old enough to be an American combatant has had many opportunities to reproduce. Trust me on that. In the context of our species' evolutionary past, he most certainly would have already reproduced.
Many animals--even animals of different species--herd or flock together because the larger group decreases each individual's odds of being picked off by a predator. That isn't altruistic, though from the perspective of the individual taken, a "sacrifice" has benefited the entire group, kin and non-kin alike.
In war, you have a singular focus on frustrating the enemy's purposes. These jump-on-the-grenade scenarios are necessarily in the heat of battle, and I'm not sure evolution has to account precisely for the behavior at all: Is it altruism when the same warriors are always leading the charge, both promoting the odds of victory and making them more likely to die?
Or is that merely the behavior of more aggressive individuals on a continuum defined by expressions of self-defense instincts differing in intensity, and societal imprinting? Did Norse berserkers evolve--or did the social constructs of the time create them? Both, probably: the ability to fight in a self-neglecting fury wins more fights; societies developed different triggers for the behavior. No altruism is required.
At any rate, I think war-time scenarios are poor examples on which to proceed with a discussion of altruism. The elements of training and super-stimulated aggression are just too confounding.

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 9:09 AM Stephen Push has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3985
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 19 of 103 (585746)
10-09-2010 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 1:59 PM


Stephen Push writes:
Wow, my message really generated a lot of replies.
It's speculative fun to discuss altruism because the science is still murky, without even agreement that the phenomenon exists.
That's also why many creationists like to claim there are no evolutionary explanations, when, in fact, the problem is that there are too many evolutionary explanations. Time will sort that out.
Is war a good model? Perhaps not. But I can think of instances of self-sacrificing behavior other than war. Firefighters and police officers put themselves in mortal danger to protect people they don't know. Yes, it's their job. But when faced with a life-threatening situation, why don't most firefighters and police officers say, "Take this job and shove it!"
You have moved from one self-selected, highly trained and adrenalized population to another. I think the same objections to the military model of altruism apply.
Does the ToE have to explain everything? No. But when a portion of the population engages in behavior that, on the face of it, appears to be highly maladaptive, it is reasonable to expect the ToE to give a satisfactory explanation.
It is unreasonable to expect the theory of evolution to explain every individually maladaptive instance of human behavior.
Suicide? Serial killers? Psychosis? Do you think the theory of evolution must explain these as well? We do have a pretty good proposed evolutionary explanation for religion, if that helps.
In our past, wasn't everybody in the tribe pretty much kin. This is a factual claim that requires evidence.
That seems fairly self-evident, especially when you keep in mind that during our evolutionary history, a tribe was a relatively small breeding and foraging unit. Still, I'm sure we can find some genetic evidence for you.
While I work on that, could you provide some evidence for your factual claim of altruism? You haven't, yet. I think that would at minimum require an event with no other plausible explanation.
Even if it is true, an unspoken assumption is that, in the last 10,000 years, we haven't adapted to our new social environment, in which many of our daily contacts are not close relatives.
I don't see your point. Are you proposing that the theory of evolution requires that biological evolution must keep pace with social change? That is absurd on its face; we are not Lamarckites.
This claim also seems to be contradicted by research suggesting that we can recognize kin, even to the point that identical twins help nieces and nephews more than fraternal twins do.
Again, I don't see what your point is. Are you claiming I can recognize my third cousin twice removed? Accurate identification of close kin doesn't mean we can identify all kin.
As to the twins studies, could you cite or link the studies so that we can examine them for ourselves? It is notoriously difficult to sort out genetic and environmental differences when studying the behaviors of both identical and fraternal twins.
One last note: generally speaking, theories are overturned by better theories, not by nibbling at the edges. Biological evolution is supported by mountains of physical evidence; speculative critiques based on nonscientific presumptive explanations of current human behavior will just bounce off.
As mentioned above, I'd like to see your evidence for altruism, as well as your theory of altruism and what that theory predicts.

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 1:59 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 3:52 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3985
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 20 of 103 (585747)
10-09-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
10-09-2010 9:40 AM


subbie writes:
What's the evolutionary explanation for the popularity of Paris Hilton?
Bonobos.

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 10-09-2010 9:40 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3985
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 27 of 103 (585757)
10-09-2010 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 3:32 PM


Stephen Push writes:
But to dismiss the evidence and say it needs no explanation strikes me as an unscientific position.
What evidence are you presenting that is being dismissed?
For example, you note that kin selection (carefully couched in the case of parents and siblings) is consistent with the theory of evolution. Multiple posters have pointed out that the concept of kinship is expansive.
How is that a dismissal?

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 3:32 PM Stephen Push has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3985
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 29 of 103 (585761)
10-09-2010 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 3:52 PM


Stephen Push writes:
There is no scientific controversy about the existence of altruistic behavior. It is defined as any behavior that reduces the individual's fitness while increasing the fitness of another individual.
That's an extraordinary claim: google "biological altruism critics" for another impression.

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 3:52 PM Stephen Push has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3985
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


(1)
Message 97 of 103 (586887)
10-15-2010 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
10-15-2010 10:51 AM


Mirror neurons
jar writes:
As we look at other species, mostly mammals that I am familiar with, we increasing see expanded choices. Young are taught behaviors. For most it still revolves around group, family, kin, tribe, but we find that there are individuals that decide NOT to participate.
When we get to humans we see an even greater set of possible reactions, for example alliances between groups, concern for others that may not even be known personally and even what looks like altruistic treatment of unrelated species.
I don't doubt that there is a genetic component but there are also intellectual and societal inputs.
I agree. Looking solely for explanations in a evolutionary calculus of relatedness can amount to a brand of biological determinism.
I don't think we have to look further than mirror neurons to find a biological mechanism for both empathy and altruism. The mirror neurons were discovered serendipitously, when a researcher studying moneky brain function noted that a monkey's neurons fired as they fire when the monkey picked up a raisin--when the monkey saw a researcher pick up a raisin. Subsequent studies revealed that the mirror neuron system in humans is considerably more robust than in monkeys, so much so that our mirror neurons fire even when we merely hear or read a description of an action.
The evolution of mirror neurons in a social animal makes considerable evolutionary sense for both learning and bonding. A good case can be made for mirror neurons as the sine qua non of empathy, with studies suggesting the robustness of the mirror neuron system in the individual correlating with both impairment (autism) and personality traits of human warmth and coolness.
We really do feel each other's pain--and distress, and disgust, and much else. What actions that empathy prompts probably depends on the baseline state of the individual's mirror neuron system--as well as social and intellectual states. I'd readily agree that religious beliefs can play a role here.
Mirror neurons provide both a good candidate to explain our deeply social nature, our empathy for our own and other species, and the expression of that empathy in action as altruism. The question then shifts away from the adequacy of kin selection to account for altruism: empathy evolved as part of our social package, and, perhaps, only as a secondary matter laid the groundwork for altruism.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 10-15-2010 10:51 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by barbara, posted 10-15-2010 2:50 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 99 by Stephen Push, posted 10-15-2010 3:42 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
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