Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)

Well, think it through, Bolder-dash. I know you're not very good at it but try anyway. If the mind of mine that is in heaven is so truly unknowable then exactly in what sense is it me?The promise is not that some being named "Crashfrog", with all my memories and experiences but completely different than me is going to heaven - the promise is that I'm going. So the mental state can't be unknowable - or else it can't be me!You just think it's unknowable, because that's the only circumstance under which you can imagine eternity as anything but a nightmare - when it's not you who's going to experience it, but someone like you, but "unknowable." (Since you can't figure out how anybody else would want that, either.)

Not to stray far off topic, but do you know, is there a place to nominate the stupidest post of the month on this forum?

The thread is about trying to persuade me that Eternal Life is to be anticipated as something to look forward to. I agree it is unknowable - but is there any scenario at all which would be something to look forward to? If you'd feel like addressing the points raised, rather than sarcastically attempting to dismiss them - I'll be here.

Well, I can think of one scenario if I can just take a stab at it. The one in which the afterlife would be something you enjoy beyond anything you have ever experienced before, and which there is no definition for on our earthly world.That's just one of the scenarios I racked my brain with for weeks and weeks to come up with. Need another?

So ... you can't answer his question?Only you could have communicated your inability to answer his question more succintly by not posting anything.

You said you read the whole thread. The OP raises this kind of afterlife and why I would not look forward to it and subsequent posts cover it. How about responding to those rather than asking me to repeat the points?Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Sorry, no--you'll have to soldier on without any special notice.

---

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio

​

Real things always push back.
-William James

Did you accidentally respond to the wrong person? The reason I am assuming you are responding to the wrong person is because when someone says they read some of the thread they usually don't mean they read the whole thread (note the positioning of the word "some" in my text as opposed to the positioning of the word "whole" in your text for more clues), so when you said to me that I said I read the whole thread you surely either were referring to someone else or else you are not very precise with the English language.But if you were referring to me when you said that I said I read the whole thread, when I said I read some of the thread (I hope you don't mind me borrowing your tone of indignation for just a moment):There happens to be a pretty good reason why I didn't find it necessary to read the entire thread . Because when someone is going to start speculating that they are not so sure that they would enjoy the afterlife, because they might find or boring, or because they might be different at the age of 18 then they are at 28, and any other earthbound consideration for how they will feel about living in a non-earthbound world is in itself already such an inexplicably ridiculous philosophical stance to take, that there is virtually no text that could support the idea that what you are experiencing here on earth will make you capable of deciding the level of satisfaction you would have in a completely different universe or state of being.Its about akin to a 2 year old baby saying, you know I think kissing girls would be so so yucky, I would never ever ever want to do that. Only even more of an uninformed opinion because at least a 2 year old can see what woman look like.There is nothing you can say, there is nothing you would ever be able to say that would validate your conclusion that you don't believe that an afterlife is something that would be suitable for you. The concept is that its an experience that awaits you after you die, that you can't know about yet, but that is a state of eternal bliss , eternal satisfaction, eternal peace. You are certainly free to say that you don't believe that such a place exists, but to suggest that you don't believe you would enjoy eternal peace even if it did exist is worse than a baby trying to understand sex, its worse than a squid trying to understand perestroika, its worse than sloths debating Carl Jung. You know nothing about it, and nothing about what you would be like at that time-you are totally incapable of forming an opinion about the level of satisfaction you would get from a state of being that you know zero about.Nothing you or anyone else bound here on earth can possibly say would shed any light whatsoever on whether or not a entirely different state of being that is undefinable here on earth would be any fun for you particularly or not. You can't think of it in terms of what you know right now. You either believe that its eternally good or you don't, you can't go analyzing about well just how good is it.Whether or not you believe in a devil or not is one issue. But to say that you might believe in the concept of a devil or just pure evil, but even so, you feel that maybe evil wouldn't be so bad, and you actually might kind of like a devil character and just feel he is misunderstand and maybe he would be kind of amusing sometimes, plus I like the color red, and you know, I used to play with fire a lot when I was a kid, and those horns, they make me laugh.....would be a pretty stupid thing to say given the level of your present knowledge of the devil (which is very close to zero), wouldn't you agree?Where is that skillet, I need to whack myself in the head again, this is such a long dream. Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.

Apparently I agree with Bolder-dash about something.I think the next sign of the coming apocalypse involves four horsemen.Seriously, B-d, that was well put.

Yes, very good. I notice that you decided to ignore the actual criticism which was that the very first post in this thread addressed your response despite your confident attitude of dismissal which would imply you understood it. Very well, if that is the case your God joins the rest of the Gods in this thread which have failed to bring a persuasive case for eternal life. I will continue to not look forward to it. I never for one moment said I wouldn't enjoy it. Indeed in Message 5 I said

quote:

---

I'd have no choice but to be happy and fulfilled... It is certainly no life I'd choose to lead

---

So if you're going to try and persuade me that it is a life I should choose to lead, you can't just describe the life - I have already indicated I'm aware of the scenario and that it doesn't appeal to me: I find no meaning or purpose in an eternal state of bliss. The same applies to your assertion about how great it would all be. I am perfectly content to be wrong in this issue, and maybe when I'm 56 I will have a different view. My point is, that in my current state of mind, I don't find eternal life such a great prospect (either I don't care or don't want it). It is nowhere near as great a temptation to me as it is trumpeted by theists of various persuasions as if it was a self-evident truth.As a thirty year old, I feel largely the same, though I haven't mulled on it for a while.So we're both 2 year olds. You think kissing girls would be great, I ask why? Is that such a crazy question? Might I recommend pinching? The problem with skillets is if you have mistaken the waking world for the dreaming one you could end up impairing your brain function. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Speaking as a Christian, that sure sounds like hell.I cannot imagine any sane person that would put up with that for any extended period, much less eternity. Of course what you describe could be some drug induced coma or maybe the result of some advanced hallucinogen and imposed by force by some truly evil critter but certainly not something that a sane individual might choose.I perhaps could imagine some eternity where you get to struggle, face increasingly difficult challenges, with failures and successes, always challenged, made to question, filled with doubt and uncertainty; but even there I would hope there would be extended periods of unconsciousness.The idea of eternal bliss, eternal satisfaction, eternal peace may be great for preteens dreaming of their first love, but not something anyone post adolescent would enjoy.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

All that scripture says about Heaven makes earth life look shabby in comparison, and the Lake of Fire absolutely horrible beyond immagination.Jesus said, in John 14:2,3 (ASV) Revelation 21: 17-27 King Solomon was, in Biblical terms, a type/analogous of the christ/messian, Jesus in that he had 700 wives. This is typical in that the conglomerate of true believers are referred to as the bride of Jesus, the christ/messiah. When he returns to raise the dead, his angels will gather all of the saved, first the dead and then the alive ones up to be with him for what is referred to as the marriage supper of the lamb. After this event and the rewarding of the resurrected Christians in Heaven etc he will return to the earth to rule a millenniumThen after the 1000 year millennial period this earth is destroyed by fire and a new heaven and is replaced by a new earth, new heavens and a new Jerusalem described above.The saints/saved Christians will have rule with him in his kingdom. On one occasion he alluded to them ruling over cities of the kingdom. In this new world where this new glorious new Jerusalem is there will be kingdoms as is stated above. This is an eternal earth, city and kingdom where Christians will live and reign forever with Jesus.Revelation 22:1-5 There will be no sickness or death and the devil and his angels, along with the unbelievers will absent; tormented in the Lake of Fire forever as other scriptures state.One had better be absolutely sure that all of the prophecies cited, the Exodus evidence and other phemonena cited is all bogus before one should not fear the alternative to Heaven stated relative to unbelief and rejection of the gospel of Jesus.I'm feel very badly and sorrowful for my unbelieving friends here at EvC and elsewhere. Why? Because I am absolutely convinced that the Biblical record is reliable from Genesis to Revelation, including all of the above. Jehovah of the Bible is one to be feared. Thus Solomon said, "The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom." and Jesus said in Luke 12:4,5, "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will warn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.Modulous, I've stated the above and cited the scripture above to say that there is every reason to aspire to attain Heaven and no logical reason to subject one's self to the alternative who refuse it.The catch is that one must believe that Jesus did indeed die for our sins and one must receive him as savior and submit to him as lord/master in order to get into Heaven. This is accountability to a lord/master. One must repent and turn from Biblically defined sins and live within those guidelines which Jesus and his apostles advocated.If one detests NT guidelines, Jesus and Biblical Christians who live by NT fundamentals, i.e. Christian fundies and has no appreciation for the redemption Jesus afforded, likely one would not be comfortable with Jesus and folks who follow him in Heaven.One must become changed via the new spiritual birth while here on earth and become compatible with the environs of the people and the christ/messiah up in the cosmos wherever Heaven is. Edited by Buzsaw, : Spell fix

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

The promise of an afterlife is the biggest blank check ever written, and it is written by shamans of all stripes.They sell what people desperately want for a promise to be kept later.And because people desperately want what they are selling they can get away with anything.And to seal the deal, shamans have made up the "or else" of hell.Too bad the truth in lending and consumer protection laws don't apply. There would be a lot fewer shamans running the streets looking for their next victims.

---

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Well, I would never really try to convince someone else about what their own personal beliefs should be, but let's suppose for a moment that in this afterlife is everyone you have ever known waiting there for you. Your family, people who have helped you in life, people who you have impacted positively without even realizing it, friends from your childhood. And along with these people are also all the secrets and mysteries of the world. Who built Stonehenge and why. Who killed John F. Kennedy. How did the Big Bang happen. Did that girl in your eighth grade science class really have a crush on you but was too shy to say so. Everything you ever wanted to find out you can know. Every memory that slowly faded from your blissful childhood can be retrieved and felt again. All the anger and regrets and mistakes you made you can wash away. You can chat with Einstein, and understand every math problem there is. You could hug your father who was sick and who you never made reconciliation with. You could go backwards and forwards in time. You could send your mind to anytime in history, and witness any event you choose. And better still, the next level of consciousness is just one step up an even higher rung of being. In the next level you have constant energy, you have alertness and brilliance of mind at will, while still maintaining your own unique imagination.Or you can say that you will prefer to just disappear into a black void of nothingness. Never find the answers to anything, and never see all your loved ones ever again. Are you really equipped in this world right now to make that choice?

My dad is a muslim and my brother is a hindu/buddhist (odd mix, I know): will they be there? Oh, and my kids are atheists, will they be there?

---

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.