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Author | Topic: Textual Discrepancies & How They Could Impact Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Was there anything in your link that had any significance?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Was there anything in your link that had any significance?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Except of course Jesus does not fulfill the requirements that Isaiah laid out there. It is not a prophecy of Jesus and if it were, it is a failed prophecy.
It is true though that far after the time Isaiah wrote that others tried to take what was written and twist it to point to Jesus.
quote: Jesus never reigned on David's throne, or over a nation. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It is also important to understand fasting as it was practiced then in the Judaic community (and in much of modern Judaism on fast days). Fasting as described in Luke 4 would have meant eating nothing between sunup and sundown. It would NOT mean going 40 days without any food. It would also have meant limiting what was eaten to a meal in the evening and one again before sunup.
To often today we read the texts from today's perspective and NOT from the perspective of a Jew living at the time it was written. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I have absolutely no doubt that you believe in the stories, the God and even the Christ that you create.
However a Jew of the period would understand that 40 is one of the magic numbers, like 3 and 7 and 12 and so was symbolic. A Jew of the period would understand the custom of fasting and that the terms "during those days" meant that the fasting rules were observed during the period. And became hungry does not indicate suffering. Which returns us to the topic. The issue with textual discrepancies is partly due to the fact that most Christians are ignorant of Judaism. Jesus was not a Christian, he was a Jew. The different books of the Bible were not written by Christians, but primarily by Jews, Jews with a basic cultural mythos that is missing in modern Christians. That ignorance of the basics let's you pull stuff out of context like your quote from Job and truly believe that it really applies to the Luke desert narrative. And that is the second great issue of textual discrepancies. Christianity created "a Bible". They sat down in committee a few hundred years after Jesus death and made one of the biggest changes in how the holy texts would be viewed, they went beyond canonization and created a BOOK. For the Jews, things were and still are scrolls. Each is a separate story by a separate author meant to address a separate issue. Christianity and committees, human editors, redactors took those separate stories and forced them into a new creation, a Bible, one book and over time that attitude has evolved into thinking that there is but one story. That act alone totally changed the way the scriptures were viewed so that today, many Christians see the Bible as one story and not the anthology of anthologies it really is. Edited by jar, : stil appalin spallin Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
They likely used common sense and base it on how well they knew you. For example, I have a brother that if he said he would b coming in three days I'd say "Neat", but I certainly wouldn't make any preparations.
His behavior is kinda like Jesus' when Jesus said he's be right back. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yawn.
The story is meant as epic, it is a symbolic tale that describes HUMAN traits, being tempted and resisting temptation. It was not meant as a literal event. I don't reject the gospels, just the interpretations of SOME chapters of Club Christian.
It applies for the simple reason that all the positive patriarchs and persons of faith in the Old Testament were only leading up to Christ. He is the climax of these partially spendid men of God. That is YOUR interpretation. There is no indication though that Job or any other Old Testament book was written referring to Jesus. What is seen is that the authors of the New Testament often used quotemines from earlier writers just as you do by taking stuff out of context.
This is your conspiracy theory. I wonder what you would expect a Book from God to be. Perhaps you feel that because it has human writers and human copyists it cannot be the product of the Divine Being. Perhaps you would expect a book by God to come floating down with wings and a golden glow about it. Well, no, I would not expect that. In fact that would be more likely a carny trick. I have never presented a conspiracy theory or think there ever was some conspiracy. Instead there have just been humans and committees that have acted based on their own needs and desires.
Tell me. Do you feel a real communication from God to man should be textural critical proof ? Huh? Please don't misunderstand me in relation to inspiration. I believe many folk have been inspired by GOD, Mohammad is a great example; then there is Frost and Darwin and Mark Twain and the Reverend Dodgson, and Mendel and Lematre and Mencken and White and Mill and Russell and Popper and Lao Tzu and Confucius and Mencius and ... The question in the end though is "How do you know it is from GOD?" Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Your view is not of one unified revelation but of a fragmented religious scrap book of Jewish culture. You do not see or believe in the unity of the revelation of the Bible. Kinda. The evidence shows that the Bible is simply the work of man, of committees, of power factions, of politics. It is not so much a scrap book as an anthology of anthologies. I may have even mentioned that before. The idea that it is some unified object is refuted by the fact that there is no such thing as an universal Canon. And it seems you still don't get it. The quotes themselves are not quote mining, your acts, your practice of pulling stuff out of context is quote mining. And you continue to simply dismiss almost all of the Bible it seems in favor of a few quotes taken out of context. This is the issue of the thread, there are textual discrepancies as well as multiple purposes for different sections. It is NOT all one unified message. Edited by jar, : fix subtitle Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The beginning of Moby Dick uses similar language and the book itself uses many of the same writing techniques. It is likely that the actual character Luke never even met Jesus and that the actual author of Luke was reporting hearsay (and of course, cribbing off even earlier Gospels and narratives).
The story of the temptation in the desert is filled with symbolism and is an allegorical fable. It's likely that the author of Luke was creating a larger allegorical narrative and so changed the ordering and timing of events to suit his particular voice. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
iano writes: You're meandering off the point. A quotemine takes a persons (Lukes) statement out of the context they (Luke) intended. Jaywill wasn't quotemining Lukes introduction in supporting his contention that Lukes account is historical - for that is the very context Luke intends to set (it being the introduction). Whether it's truly historical or not isn't the issue. Whether it's a quotemine or not is. It is precisely on topic. The quote taken from Luke aligns well with the opening of Moby Dick, a character, in the Gospel Luke, in Moby Dick the character Ishmael, makes a claim, of historicity. jawill was using that quote to support his assertion that the account of the temptation was to be taken as factual and literal. I am simply pointing out that the author of Luke was using that same techniques of allegory that we see repeated in Luke and many other parts of the Bible. The Textual discrepancies, for example between the account of the temptation in Luke and in Matthew would not have been significant or important to Jews of the time because they recognized that the writers were using symbolism and allegory. The impact on Christianity comes from the inability of many Christians to understand literature and the concept as expressed by jaywill that "the Bible is some Unified Revelation".
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If the only thing you wish to harp on is the one example of jaywill quoting the opening of Luke I am more than happy to concede that in that one incident it was not quote mining. I have no problem agreeing with that.
iano writes: I think jaywill was doing as I am doing - countering your 'it's allegorical' claim by: a) pointing to the fact that the author doesn't agree with your view. b) stating his trusting the authors position over yours. We have no idea what the author thought, we only know what the character Luke in the Gospel said. Further, if you would actually read the thread you would find that I was referring to a common and continued practice of jaywill of taking one quote out of context and using it as proof text for some other passage, the concept that the Bible explains the Bible.
iano writes: You can quotemine Moby Dick by taking something stated in Moby Dick out of the context the author of Moby Dick intended. Whether or not Moby Dick is actual history or not is irrelevant to the issue of quotemining or no. It is not quotemining to point to Lukes declaration that his account is a historical one. The question then is whether you trust his claim. Jaywill says he does. How is the declaration of the character Luke any different than the declaration of Ismael?
iano writes: jar writes: I am simply pointing out that the author of Luke was using that same techniques of allegory... You say. He says not. A question of trust. No it is not a matter of trust, it is a matter of looking at the literature itself and understanding the culture of the author. It is important to the topic, and helps the audience understand the some of the things that lead to the positions so many Christians espouse. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jaywill writes: I am still curious how you would imagine a book inspired by God to mankind. Do you think that if such a book existed there should be instantaneous and universal agreement among all readers about every part of it ? Do you envision that the very second it was read, all matters in it would be instantly comprehended, with not one moment of disagreement, no need for consultation, no discussion, no debate, no need for any committees ? Would you expect that all enfluenced by it would be totally free from political opinions or considerations ? Does this book of God come floating down from heaven and, BINGO!, as soon as 100 intelligent people read it, there is absolutely unanimous agreement by all parties, instantaneously, concerning each and all details regarding this book ? Yes, the council of Nicene was presided over by a politcal figure who perhaps had less interest in theology then in the unity of his empire. I don't deny these things. Many of us do not feel that these evidences of humanity's meddling render God Almighty powerless and not able to communicate to His creatures. These things that "discourage" you, many of us do not find as insurmountable obstacles to a God inspired communication from the Divine to the Human. Please show where I said things discourage me? The fact is that there is not even a universal list of what books would be included.
jaywill writes: That Jesus did not eat anything during the 40 days was not at all "pulled out of context." Verses which are plainly in context, you flatly contradict. There was really little need to appeal to other passages. But I did. And I will stand by this: Moses and Elijah had great ministries in the Old Testament. Each of these ministries was accompanied with a extreme fast. That the Son of God was similar in this regard is totally not a surprise to me. To you a career skeptic, probably Moses means nothing, Elijah means less, and the Son of God means nothing. So to a indoctrinated career unbeliever, following around Bart Erhman, what's the difference ? Moses fasted for 4o days, (perhaps 80, since he turned around and went right up the Mt. Sanai again to meet with God again after the golden calf incident ). Elijah went 40 days and nights on one small meal. These two represent the law and the prophets. That the Son of God's ministry should have a similar fast is understandable to me. I don't see why a more important figure should be accompanied by a less particular and perhaps miraculous fast. And the folk familiar with how literature is written and how the terms were used also understand that the mention of 40 days is symbolic of a long fast of indeterminate length in the Moshe myths and the Elijah story as well and that fasting does not mean going without all food.
jaywill writes: These textural problems presented in this discussion, I don't think are too serious. You're looking for some devastating textural contradiction. I don't know of one which is devastating to the general message of the New Testament. Ah, so yet again the goal posts move. Now it is just a "general message of the New Testament".
jaywill writes: You guys are looking for some textural descrepancy which will obsolve you of the seriousness of needing the salvation of Christ. You seem to be hanging your hopes on some copyist's typo or error which will allow you to dismiss the urgency of the need of a Savior. I don't think you have any such textural problem that will allow you to disregard the overall Gospel message. That's a whatever jaywill, of little importance and I don't think even very significant to what I think the message of the New Testament, the Gospel is. Salvation, if there is salvation, will be by GOD's grace. The message of the New Testament though is that we are charged to try to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, teach the young, protect the helpless, to do. The textural discrepancies impact Christianity by moving peoples focus from just doing to some future possible reward. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Okay jaywill.
You present YOUR best case to support YOUR position. I have never said you should do otherwise. In turn, I present the best case I can for my position. The audience will decide who has presented a better explanation. However my explanation for the allegorical and symbolic nature of the use of numbers, fasting and the literature that the author of Luke used when writing the Gospel attributed to Luke is not unique or even unusual. For example, even the information in Wiki points out many of the same issues I raised.
Wikipedia writes: Fasting traditionally presaged a great spiritual struggle. Elijah and Moses in the Old Testament fasted 40 days and nights, and so Jesus doing the same invites comparison to these events. At the time, 40 was less a specific number and more a general expression for any large figure. Fasting may not mean a complete abstinence from food; consequently, Jesus may have been surviving on the sparse food that could be obtained in the desert. From Wiki Article: If the issue is taken literally then the issue of the different textual accounts found in Matthew and Luke should be addressed. Edited by jar, : hit wrong key Edited by jar, : and still appalin spallin Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But in the latest quote mine example from you, you left out a significant if not THE significant part of the OP.
Here is what you just wrote:
jaywill writes: The OP states:
I feel these verses could have an impact on certain tenets, beliefs and practices of Christianity. 1 John 5:7 - There are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. IMO, this impacts the Doctrine of the Trinity Well, in my opinion it has no impact and my "personal confidence" has as much right to be expressed as purpledawn's "personal confidence" that she has spotted a delimma for the community of faith. and here is what was actually on the OP...
quote: Note the bold part that you left out. Many chapters of Club Christian have as a basic article of faith the concept of Unity in Trinity, of Three in One. The passage from John is one of the main places where support for that position can be found. If though it was not in the original or even what John thought or believed but rather a later dogmatic insertion, then it is a great example of textual discrepancies that have impacted Christianity. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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