Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)

But the afterlife that you envision doesn't eliminate the "strife, death, suffering and discontent". It just moves them down to the lake. How are we supposed to live a "perfect" life in heaven when we know that some of our best friends are worse off than they were on earth?You're just robbing Peter to pay Paul. How is Paul supposed to derive any satisfaction from that?

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

ok then tell me what you would do on day 1 in hevan, then day 2......,year 1000 000 000. Would you run out of stuff to do that would spark interest in you would you see all there is to see do all there is to do over and over again by then. Or would it take 1000 000 000 000 years to do every thing and once you have done everything so many times it sparks no more interest in you what would you do then, would you be bored yet, or alredy insane, or do you need 1000 000 000 times more years to reach boredom, and 1000 000 000 000 times more than that to get to a point where one could call you insane. Guess what the time has not run out yet you have not even scratched the surface of the time you have to spend there for you have eternety.

All of those scenarios you presented are vastly subjective. What you think is good to eat, I may find atrocious. What you find blissful may give me a splitting headache. What you find to be a perfect environment may make me gag or hurt my eyes. I guess I would ask you the same thing I asked B-D: is there one heaven for all or do we each get our own whatever-we-want/whatever-makes-us-happy heaven? If it's the latter: then, my friend, that sounds like an utter pipe dream.Edited by hooah212002, : out => our

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"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

I full agree.What one may think of as paradise someone else would think of as the lack of paradise.There would probably have to be 6.6 billion heavens to accommodate those alive today that is"One man's trash is another man's treasure." AnonEdited by bluescat48, : sp & missing"

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

Day 73: order more virgins.

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"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

It is not pointless for those of us who acknowledge that God has a good purpose for all things he does. We leave that up to him, to whom we have total confidence in, given how he cares for us in this life. Our purpose for existence has a high value, i.e. the kingdom of Jehovah our god. Our purpose becomes his purpose after conversion and we can trust in him for he cares in wonderful ways for us when we submit to him and acknowledge him before men.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

When one becomes born of the Holy Spirit, i.e spiritually born at conversion one becomes a new creature, according to the apostles. We are instructed in the NT to grow in the word of scripture by study of scripture and assembling ourselves together, i.e. the church. As we do this we become what is described as "one mind," desiring what is best for our physical and spiritual well being. Christians who fail to follow through with these priciples often flounder and fall away.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

What passage are you referring to? This "one mind" appeals to you? You WANT to be just like everyone else? The people in your eternal happy place are not unique unto themselves? How is this at all appealing?

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"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

Skipping over hooah212002's request for textual citation since it is largely irrelevant, doesn't this mean that humans can never go to heaven? Allow me to explain:When you are born you don't have a relationship with God. You don't believe in the tenants of Christianity that are required for someone to be saved because you can't understand them. Such a child would be an atheist, if you consider that term to properly apply to things that are incapable of being theists (rocks, trees, dogs, etc).At some point later in their life that child will become capable of understanding Christianity and fulfilling the requirements to be saved, and afterwards that child *may* be presented with the choice to become saved or not. This is contingent on them being exposed to the information of Jesus's sacrifice and the knowledge of the choice to be made; whether this happens through someone telling them about Christianity or supernatural revelation sometime in their life or after death is irrelevant. If they make that choice to become saved they stop being an atheist and become a theist.And there is the rub. If as you say they "become a new creature" through that conversion, whether it occurs immediately upon making the decision or later in their spiritual progression, the fact of the matter is that the atheist person or soul isn't what actually goes to heaven. The non-believing baby or the baby's soul never makes it to heaven. Its some simulacrum which is presumably based off of the original being, but is fundamentally altered in some important way. (Whatever that might be, it apparently required a complete remake and not just a modification.)So by your view, God created us screwed from the start. Nobody can actually become "saved" because that saving process requires the destruction of the original and replacement by *something else*. Its like traveling to Mars by being cloned on Mars and killing yourself on Earth, except in this case with your soul.The big question that remains here is why did God make people at all? If he isn't going to let any of them into heaven but only fundamentally altered copies somewhat based off of them, why not just make the copies that are fit for heaven in the first place? Why bother with creating beings with the sole intention of them coming to know him, and when they do so annihilating them in favor of a more pleasing replacement?

How is it irrelevant? Buz is basing his idea of an afterlife off of what is written in his holy-book. I just want to see whether or not he is really doing so, or making it up. Part of the reason I chose to call him out on this was his usage of "becomes a new creature". It seems a bit peculiar. When one is referring to a soul or spirit, you don't normally associate them with the term "creature" (or maybe that's just me). It, IMO, seems as though Buz is referring to some actual physical transformation a person goes through upon "trve" salvation. I would have to again ask for validity or evidence of someone going through this transformation (although, that would obviously be for a different thread if he so chose to pursue it).

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"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

I view it as irrelevant because not only do I think the text itself is fiction, but theists have a very robust history of interpreting it to mean any number of things regardless of what it actually says. Since we are never going to be able to establish that Buzsaw's interpretation is wrong we may as well not bother.

Day 74: Lose the virgins, order some nice hippie chicks.

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Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio

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Real things always push back.
-William James

You are keen to define your way to victory: you might as well say, 'Eternal life is everything you want it to be, no more no less' as a means of persuasion. Here you are simply asserting the existence of a purpose for it all to persuade me it isn't pointless.OK, so somebody has a purpose in mind. It is my mind that is in question here, and I don't see the point of the existence you described. If you can tell me what the point is, I'll let you know if I want to sign up.

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The impetus of my point is that Jehovah is the designer, creator, planner and manager of the entire universe. The point, perse, is that all we need do is to get in sinct with whatever purpose the manager has for humans on this tiny speck in his universe.The maker has furnished a manual for us to follow and refer to for any given problem or question. Over the last 65 years of my life as a Christian, since age 10, the Biblical principles have served me and mine very well. Not only that, but I have no anxiety or concern about what Jehovah and the lord/master, Jesus has for me for eternity. What I see described by his prophet John looks very good to me, so the unknowns must be just fine.Even if I were mistaken and death is the end, I would not trade the NT principled life for any other life plan out there. I look at cultures and it appears that the NT pricipled ones are the ones which fair the best. Therefore there's no reason to doubt good for the afterlife.Those principles of Jesus and the apostles are as follows; Love for God and good to those around us, be they friend or foe, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, humility, and temperance; these as per the beatitudes of Jesus in Matthew and the fruit of God's spirit as per the apostle Paul in Gal 5:22 and 23.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.