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Author Topic:   Helping a Friend about the Nature of Science
nwr
Member
Posts: 6421
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 31 of 41 (582081)
09-19-2010 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Yrreg
09-19-2010 4:38 PM


Re: Something exists on the quantum level and in chaos.
Yrreg writes:
If no one believes that chance is any cause of anything at all, that is fine by me.
I see "chance" as a descriptive term, but not as a causal term.
Yrreg writes:
You bring in chaos, I would like to ask you what you mean by chaos in science.
Typically, "chaos" is used when small changes in initial conditions can result in larges changes in the outcome.

This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 32 of 41 (582090)
09-19-2010 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Yrreg
09-19-2010 4:38 PM


Yrreg responds to me:
quote:
There is something that exists even on the quantum level, that is admitted by scientists, no?
Without knowing what you mean by "something," I would have to say no. Please define your terms so that we can know what you're talking about.
quote:
There is something that exists even in chaos as postulated by scientists.
Again, without knowing what you mean by "something," I would have to say no. Please define your terms so that we can know what you're talking about.
quote:
What is chance in science?
That's my question to you. As I asked you directly, what do you mean by "chance" and why do you think science doesn't include it as a factor?
quote:
If no one believes that chance is any cause of anything at all, that is fine by me.
Again, what do you mean by "chance" and why do you think science doesn't include it as a factor?
quote:
You bring in chaos, I would like to ask you what you mean by chaos in science.
Nice try, but that's my question to you: What do you mean by "chance" and why do you think science doesn't include it as a factor?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

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Yrreg
Member (Idle past 5011 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 11-21-2006


Message 33 of 41 (582290)
09-20-2010 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by frako
09-19-2010 5:28 PM


Life and the universe is not to be known just on the tossing a coin.
Life and the universe is not to be known just on the tossing of a coin.
So, you all of us have got to go beyond and outside that mentality of understanding life and the universe on the basis of tossing a coin.
You say that chance is probability.
That is very good, because then it is not something that is absolute chance but relative only, relative to our capacity to see how a thing will undergo an event where it is the subject or the object, and what the situation of the thing will turn out after one occurrence of the event, then after n number occurrences of the event.
Suppose now you want to find out how a thing that is without life develops into a thing that is living.
Take for example you pick a grain of sand from a swamp and throw it up, a grain of sand from the primeval soup according to some atheist scientists from where life originated, by what they describe as the process of life coming from non-life -- abiogenesis (insofar as they can see from their eyes, that is).
Acting in accordance with your mentality of tossing a coin, how many tossing do you have to do with that grain of sand before it develops into something else or its situation changes, for example, instead of being tossed by you up in the air, it simply gets blown away beyond your reach and sight by a strong wind.
How will it ever get to become a first living cell at all?
So, you have to be intelligent to know more about life and the universe than just saying that it is probability that explains everything.
Of course you will say that it is probability working in the billions and billions of years.
In which case you should be saying it is the billions and billions of years.
That billions and billions of years of course will be your explanation for anything and everything, and it is not using your intelligence.
Yrreg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by frako, posted 09-19-2010 5:28 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 34 of 41 (582296)
09-20-2010 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Yrreg
09-20-2010 5:41 PM


Re: Life and the universe is not to be known just on the tossing a coin.
Life and the universe is not to be known just on the tossing of a coin.
you are absolutly right that is why we test things mesure them observe them and then come to a logical conclusion and if new data arises that contradits our conclusion we dont discard the data we discard the conclusion.
You say that chance is probability.
That is very good, because then it is not something that is absolute chance but relative only, relative to our capacity to see how a thing will undergo an event where it is the subject or the object, and what the situation of the thing will turn out after one occurrence of the event, then after n number occurrences of the event.
yes exactly, and if somthing has a chance of happening it will probably happen some would say it is impossible to win the loto 2 times in one lifetime well an english bloke would disagree whit them he won 2 times once 9 milion pounds the second time 4,5 million
Suppose now you want to find out how a thing that is without life develops into a thing that is living.
Take for example you pick a grain of sand from a swamp and throw it up, a grain of sand from the primeval soup according to some atheist scientists from where life originated, by what they describe as the process of life coming from non-life -- abiogenesis (insofar as they can see from their eyes, that is).
it is simple to get ogranic molecules and amino acids if you want to make them in a gas container you need
# water (H2O
# methane (CH4)
# ammonia (NH3) and
# hydrogen (H2)
and a spark aminoacids and organic molecules will form the building bloks of life
This meteorite, that fell near Murchison, Australia on 28 September 1969, turned out to contain a variety of organic molecules
moar building bloks from outer space
if you can get the parts there is a chance of life spawning
So, you have to be intelligent to know more about life and the universe than just saying that it is probability that explains everything.
well no probability dose not explain anything on its own and it never did in science you probably asume so because you do not have the fatcs that go whit the probability
Of course you will say that it is probability working in the billions and billions of years.
well yes and no its not probability alone it is probability and the laws of nature and what matter is availible
In which case you should be saying it is the billions and billions of years.
That billions and billions of years of course will be your explanation for anything and everything, and it is not using your intelligence.
well actualy it is but not alone combined whit the fatcs and the laws we know.
if i could prove beyond a doubt that god did not start the big bang you would still say well he is hiding in the eleventh dimension, if i proved beyond a doubt thet he is not there you would say i dont have the mesuring equipment to find him witch is the more intelegent way of thinking
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 35 of 41 (582297)
09-20-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Yrreg
09-17-2010 11:51 PM


Re: What is the role if any of chance in science?
Science is built on the idea that there is order in the physical universe.
Not precisely. Science can define and detect chaos in a system, and it can also determine disorder as it relates to thermodynamics (disorder being even distribution of energy within a system).
What science is built on is the idea that the universe is rational. That we can make sense of it if we try hard enough. This means that things don't change willy nilly when we change places in the universe, or as time moves forward. The mass of one mole of carbon will be the same today as it was yesterday and as it will be tomorrow, as one example. We don't expect that gravity will suddenly become a repulsive force at the drop of a hat.

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Yrreg
Member (Idle past 5011 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 11-21-2006


Message 36 of 41 (582510)
09-21-2010 6:07 PM


Okay, explain how a nose come about to exist in your face...
Okay, explain how a nose came about to exist in your face and to operate for you to live healthily, with chance, or probability, or chaos (i.e., as exemplified by something, for example the flap of a butterfly's wing, happens in the initial conditions that can bring about a storm somewhere else...).
Yrreg

Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by jar, posted 09-21-2010 8:07 PM Yrreg has not replied
 Message 39 by Omnivorous, posted 09-21-2010 8:28 PM Yrreg has not replied
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-21-2010 8:57 PM Yrreg has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 37 of 41 (582524)
09-21-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Yrreg
09-21-2010 6:07 PM


Re: Okay, explain how a nose come about to exist in your face...
Okay, explain how a nose came about to exist in your face and to operate for you to live healthily, with chance, or probability, or chaos...
The nose is important, and it serves various functions. For example, nasal shape and size correlates with temperature and humidity. In hot and moist areas the nose can be smaller and wider (and I am talking primarily about the skeletal structure) while in cold dry areas the nose needs to be larger and narrower as it warms and humidifies air before it reaches the lungs.
The rest of the story is mutations and natural selection, same as always.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 38 of 41 (582526)
09-21-2010 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Yrreg
09-21-2010 6:07 PM


Re: Okay, explain how a nose come about to exist in your face...
So you want to know about the nose...
quote:
IN the High and Far-Off Times the Elephant, O Best Beloved, had no trunk. He had only a blackish, bulgy nose, as big as a boot, that he could wriggle about from side to side; but he couldn't pick up things with it. But there was one Elephant--a new Elephant--an Elephant's Child--who was full of 'satiable curtiosity, and that means he asked ever so many questions. And he lived in Africa, and he filled all Africa with his 'satiable curtiosities. He asked his tall aunt, the Ostrich, why her tail-feathers grew just so, and his tall aunt the Ostrich spanked him with her hard, hard claw. He asked his tall uncle, the Giraffe, what made his skin spotty, and his tall uncle, the Giraffe, spanked him with his hard, hard hoof. And still he was full of 'satiable curtiosity! He asked his broad aunt, the Hippopotamus, why her eyes were red, and his broad aunt, the Hippopotamus, spanked him with her broad, broad hoof; and he asked his hairy uncle, the Baboon, why melons tasted just so, and his hairy uncle, the Baboon, spanked him with his hairy, hairy paw. And still he was full of 'satiable curtiosity! He asked questions about everything that he saw, or heard, or felt, or smelt, or touched, and all his uncles and his aunts spanked him. And still he was full of 'satiable curtiosity!
Source

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 39 of 41 (582528)
09-21-2010 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Yrreg
09-21-2010 6:07 PM


Re: Okay, explain how a nose come about to exist in your face...
The nose knows.
Talk to the nose.

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Yrreg, posted 09-21-2010 6:07 PM Yrreg has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 41 (582532)
09-21-2010 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Yrreg
09-21-2010 6:07 PM


Re: Okay, explain how a nose come about to exist in your face...
Okay, explain how a nose came about to exist in your face and to operate for you to live healthily, with chance, or probability, or chaos (i.e., as exemplified by something, for example the flap of a butterfly's wing, happens in the initial conditions that can bring about a storm somewhere else...).
Evolution.
Surely you've heard of it.
Well then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Yrreg, posted 09-21-2010 6:07 PM Yrreg has not replied

  
Damouse
Member (Idle past 4991 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 41 of 41 (587479)
10-19-2010 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Yrreg
09-17-2010 11:51 PM


Re: What is the role if any of chance in science?
quote:
Science is built on the idea that there is order in the physical universe.
What is the role of chance in science?
If you took a purely classical view of physics and looked at the world (as some philosophers have) you could conclude that chance doesnt exist.
So... i suppose the devil's advocate response is that chance is an illusion based on lack of information or processing power.
Thought id toss a bone out there : )

This message is a reply to:
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