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Author Topic:   "Creation Science" experiments.
Panda
Member (Idle past 3739 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 328 of 396 (584972)
10-04-2010 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Just being real
10-04-2010 12:48 PM


Re: How Intelligent Design qualifies as a scientific theory
Hello JBR,
Just being real writes:
Alright, let me attempt to define this again more exhaustively.
Ok.
Just being real writes:
abstruse: hard to understand because of being extremely complex, intellectually demanding, difficult to penetrate; incomprehensible to one of ordinary understanding or knowledge; "the professor's lectures were so abstruse that students tended to avoid them"; "a deep metaphysical theory"; "some recondite problem in historiography"
particularized: directed toward a specific object; "particularized thinking as distinct from stereotyped sloganeering"
Communication: a process of transferring information from one entity to another. Communication processes are sign-mediated interactions between at least two agents which share a repertoire of signs and semiotic rules.
Definitions of the words: abstruse, particularized and Communication. Not a definition of APC.
Just being real writes:
Scientists calculate the capacity of a pattern (for example in DNA) to communicate complex information using Shannon equations. Where (I) is information, and (p) is the occurrence of a particular sequence, and (n) is the length of nucleotides examined.
I = -log2 p and p=(1/4)n
An equation related to the transmission of information.
Just being real writes:
The view of information as a message came into prominence with the publication in 1948 of an influential paper by Claude Shannon, "A Mathematical Theory of Communication." This paper provides the foundations of information theory and endows the word information not only with a technical meaning but also a measure. If the sending device is equally likely to send any one of a set of N messages, then the preferred measure of "the information produced when one message is chosen from the set" is the base two logarithm of N (This measure is called self-information).
A complementary way of measuring information is provided by algorithmic information theory. In brief, this measures the information content of a list of symbols based on how predictable they are, or more specifically how easy it is to compute the list through a program: the information content of a sequence is the number of bits of the shortest program that computes it. The sequence below would have a very low algorithmic information measurement since it is a very predictable pattern, and as the pattern continues the measurement would not change. Shannon information would give the same information measurement for each symbol, since they are statistically random, and each new symbol would increase the measurement. 123456789101112131415161718192021 (see Wikipedia on information)
Descriptions of possible ways to measure information entropy.
Just being real writes:
Using this method for measuring information communicated in the DNA strand we can see that it is indeed abstruse information, but there is another element to understanding information in DNA. As I pointed out in an earlier post, polymers can also be said to have abstruse information, but they lack particularization or specificity.
A statement that DNA and polymers 'can be said to have information'.
Just being real writes:
IDists have successfully quantified specificity as being any event or object which exhibits a pattern that matches a foreknown pattern that was completely interdependent of the first. In other words, for an observer to test for specificity, he must be able to recognize from a completely independent experience. This can either be a pattern that produces a recognition response or a functional response.
A definition of specificity.
Just being real writes:
One example that I have found useful that I picked up was that of tourists standing and observing Mount Rushmore. They recognize the faces from independent patterns (pictures from history books) which in turn initiate a specific response (recognition).
A description of facial recognition in action.
Just being real writes:
Or another example I like is the combination lock. When the correct combination is entered into the lock it produces a specific function response. In this case the lock does not require intelligence to understand the information, but the observer can still recognize the design by his independent understanding of how locks function. I must stress that the key to recognizing specificity is the independent patter already existing within the observer or the function of the object. Otherwise any conferred specificity can merely be contrived rather than real.
A description of learned behaviour and how it might relate to specificity.
.
.
.
I still do not see a definition of APC.
Edited by Panda, : Typos
Edited by Panda, : tysop
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Just being real, posted 10-04-2010 12:48 PM Just being real has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3739 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 354 of 396 (586432)
10-13-2010 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by hooah212002
10-13-2010 8:46 AM


hooah212002 writes:
No one gives a fuck what your defenition for specificity is. You coined a term: "apc". DEFINE THAT. Unless you are giving up on it?
I had already pointed out that JBR's "attempt to define [npc] again more exhaustively" failed.
It didn't even mention the term 'NPC', but instead had passages defining 'specificity'.
Since JBR never mentioned his 'definition' again, I took it for granted that he had realised he wasn't able to define it.
Why is it when people are asked for more specificity (pun intended), they get more vague?
It reminds me of a conversation I had with a customer service worker:
"How long will it take?"
"I'll put it at the top of my list."
"How long will it take?"
"I should be able to start it today."
"How long will it take?"
"The parts that are required are sourced locally."
"Will it take 1 hour?"
"Will it take 2 hours?"
(Not an exaggeration)
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by hooah212002, posted 10-13-2010 8:46 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by hooah212002, posted 10-13-2010 9:51 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3739 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 366 of 396 (587504)
10-19-2010 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Just being real
10-19-2010 3:12 AM


Just being real writes:
No. The patterns are the result of natural laws of physics at work in weather patterns. They are no different than the patterns observed in crystals. Interesting, complex, but not particularized (specific).
How do you know that those patterns aren't particularized?
What did you measure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Just being real, posted 10-19-2010 3:12 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Just being real, posted 10-19-2010 3:17 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3739 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 375 of 396 (587577)
10-19-2010 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by Just being real
10-19-2010 3:17 PM


Just being real writes:
However if he does recognize it from a prior experience then he can say with good certainty that it is particularized.
How did he know during that prior experience that it was (or was not) particularized?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Just being real, posted 10-19-2010 3:17 PM Just being real has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3739 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 387 of 396 (587707)
10-20-2010 11:19 AM


The only experiment (suggested by a creationist) that I can see amongst all the obfuscation is:
Pick something up.
Do you recognise it?
   No => You are ignorant
   Yes => Do you know what it is for?
             No => You are ignorant
             Yes => It is designed

If DESIGNED = true Then GOD = true
It is just the usual assertion that 'order' = 'design' followed by "I'll know it when I see it".
Is this ordered and designed?
Is this ordered and designed?
It appears we will have to wait a while longer before creationists figure out a way to tell the difference.

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Wounded King, posted 10-20-2010 12:16 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

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