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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 166 of 675 (446847)
01-07-2008 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
12-23-2007 12:19 PM


Re: Moving beyond Dogma
Jar writes:

There is nothing in reason, logic and reality that is in anyway a problem for religion, unless you think religion should be unreasonable, illogical and based on unreality.

Do you personally believe in the supernatural?

Do you believe that GOD interacts with humanity, even though we are too insignificant in comparison, perhaps, to understand it?


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 Message 165 by jar, posted 12-23-2007 12:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 167 of 675 (446849)
01-07-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Thugpreacha
01-07-2008 11:05 AM


Re: Moving beyond Dogma
Do you personally believe in the supernatural?

Yup, but I also know I have no way of knowing if I am right.

Do you believe that GOD interacts with humanity, even though we are too insignificant in comparison, perhaps, to understand it?

Yup, but I also know I have no way of knowing if I am right. It's not simply a matter of understanding, it is an issue of even being able to determine if it has any validity. There is no way to tell a miracle from a fluke, or if it is God talking to you or you are just talking to yourself.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 675 (450953)
01-25-2008 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by jar
11-20-2007 11:00 AM


Re: Does God much care if we talk to Her?

Jar writes:

God and God experience are two different concepts.

What we can know about GOD is only some god we create, our own personal God experience. It is that which the Bible and other things can help us understand, but it is never more than a Map, it is not the Territory.

Can you explain to us again what the territory symbolizes and what the map symbolizes?

Jar writes:

The key is that YOU must hear, that you put aside the outside voices and honestly listen to yourself, look at what YOU are saying, question what YOU are saying, rebut what YOU are saying. Prayer should be a moment when YOU listen to YOU and when YOU honestly question what YOU say and do.

So in other words, .....if I continually question myself, is that not indicative of perpetual uncertainty?

Edited by Phat, : add GD Sign

Edited by Phat, : rephrased my last question to reflect current beliefs and questions.


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 169 of 675 (587001)
10-16-2010 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
05-29-2007 2:18 PM


C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality

1) As a self proclaimed Christian, do you believe that it is important to
believe that GOD exists? The alternative, of course, would be to simply not worry about such unanswerable questions, I suppose.

2) In your opinion, are many Christians simply lying to themselves when they claim that God either speaks to them or to society in general through scripture?(Scripture in this context meaning anything taken in any context from any Bible)

3) Is it important for us as Christians to have a comforting belief that God has time for us and cares?

Also, jar..feel free to expound upon other questions asked in earlier posts that we never finished discussing a couple of years ago. )

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


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jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 170 of 675 (587007)
10-16-2010 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Thugpreacha
10-16-2010 7:28 AM


Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
Phat writes:

1) As a self proclaimed Christian, do you believe that it is important to
believe that GOD exists? The alternative, of course, would be to simply not worry about such unanswerable questions, I suppose.

I imagine that it would be rather difficult to be a Christian that does not believe GOD exists. It is not impossible though; look at how many Christian Clergy market Gods that are one evil bastard at times but then immediately market the same God as a blundering idiot and then a pitiful joke.

Phat writes:

2) In your opinion, are many Christians simply lying to themselves when they claim that God either speaks to them or to society in general through scripture?(Scripture in this context meaning anything taken in any context from any Bible)

I have no idea.

Phat writes:

3) Is it important for us as Christians to have a comforting belief that God has time for us and cares?

Huh? In Christianity there is no such need. Now individuals might have such needs but I doubt very much it has anything to do with Christianity.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-16-2010 7:28 AM Thugpreacha has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 675 (587163)
10-17-2010 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by jar
10-16-2010 9:44 AM


Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
In going back through this thread, I noticed that we previously spent a lot of time discussing the implications of God having foreknowledge.

You laid out a logical case against God having (or allowing Himself to have) such knowledge IF He intentionally created people who would end up damned.

Club Christian has so many different chapters and contrary beliefs!

If GOD is unknowable in this life, it would really make me sad. It would be like having a Father whom I never met nor knew (or even could know, evidently) who left me one note telling me "Johnny, I love you and want you to try and do your best! I have given you the knowledge to differentiate right from wrong, and I expect you to learn to make wise choices during your life. This is my charge to you. I cannot guarantee that we will ever meet, yet I want you to love others and try and do your best to get along with them.
Much Love, GOD"

jar writes:

I imagine that it would be rather difficult to be a Christian that does not believe GOD exists.

Beliefs exist for a reason. What reasons would be logical for anyone supporting them trusting an unknowable God?

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jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 172 of 675 (587166)
10-17-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Thugpreacha
10-17-2010 11:00 AM


Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
Phat writes:

Beliefs exist for a reason. What reasons would be logical for anyone supporting them trusting an unknowable God?

There does not have to be a good reason for a belief and beliefs are quite often unreasonable, illogical, irrational and inconsistent.

Exactly how does one trust God in the first place?

Too often the phrase "trust god" is far more appropriately used in reference to Alfred E.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-17-2010 11:00 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 173 of 675 (587581)
10-19-2010 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by jar
10-17-2010 11:59 AM


Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
jar writes:

Exactly how does one trust God in the first place?

We both agree that we cannot know anything for sure regarding God...specifically GOD. In my opinion, trusting God equates to trusting that there is a benevolent Higher Power who has character, personality, and loving favor to we undeserving humans. ( )

It can also mean trusting that what we want to happen deserves to happen since it seems part of a higher purpose and plan that transcends human whim.


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 Message 172 by jar, posted 10-17-2010 11:59 AM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 174 of 675 (587583)
10-19-2010 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2010 3:42 PM


Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
It can also mean trusting that what we want to happen deserves to happen since it seems part of a higher purpose and plan that transcends human whim.

So trust God to make what YOU want to happen happen. Got it!


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2010 3:42 PM Thugpreacha has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 175 of 675 (587584)
10-19-2010 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
10-19-2010 3:46 PM


Is it unreasonable to trust that fairness is a basic right?
On an altruistic empathetic level, I just want everyone to be content and not in want of basic modes of survival and reasonable comfort. (A House with no leaking roof and adequate climate, clothes that are functional as well as dignified, and food that is nutritious and in good supply)

Beyond the basics, it is probably better to be not content, since we need to progress as a species and because contentment may lead to apathy.

As to what I want, I want what I grew up with. Perhaps it was excessive, but I never felt that it was. If this is too unrealistic of a request, lets say that at a minimum, I want what I said above. Warm and secure shelter, decent clothes, and enough food.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 176 of 675 (587585)
10-19-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2010 3:52 PM


Re: Is it unreasonable to trust that fairness is a basic right?
The question was about Trust in God, but so far all I see is "What Phat wants".

It appears that the God you create and claim to worship is little more than an errand boy or perhaps a Sugar Daddy.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2010 3:52 PM Thugpreacha has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 177 of 675 (587586)
10-19-2010 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
10-19-2010 3:59 PM


Re: Is it unreasonable to trust that fairness is a basic right?
What religion imagines a God that does not care?

Granted I will admit that the God I worship is basically a God I have imagined. How could it be any other way?

And why would any sane person want to worship a God who was too important to give them any help in life? It is impossible to relate to such a God. It is as you said before...how could an ant love a human or look up to such a creature?

How could I look up to a God whom I couldn't even get to know?


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 Message 176 by jar, posted 10-19-2010 3:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 10-19-2010 4:45 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31784
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 178 of 675 (587590)
10-19-2010 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Thugpreacha
10-19-2010 4:07 PM


Re: Is it unreasonable to trust that fairness is a basic right?
What religion imagines a God that does not care?

Granted I will admit that the God I worship is basically a God I have imagined. How could it be any other way?

And why would any sane person want to worship a God who was too important to give them any help in life? It is impossible to relate to such a God. It is as you said before...how could an ant love a human or look up to such a creature?

How could I look up to a God whom I couldn't even get to know?

Again, the emphasis you present is all about "What's good for Phat."


Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)

1. Obedience and punishment orientation

(How can I avoid punishment?)


2. Self-interest orientation

(What's in it for me?)

Level 2 (Conventional)

3. Interpersonal accord and conformity

(Social norms)
(The good boy/good girl attitude)

4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation

(Law and order morality)

Level 3 (Post-Conventional)

5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles

(Principled conscience)

Would you call that Stage 2 of Level 1?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-19-2010 4:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 179 of 675 (587706)
10-20-2010 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
10-19-2010 4:45 PM


Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development
OK, I found your source and examined the content. The accusation seems logical. I am rather infantile when it comes to what I want.

You will find that many Americans are not only like me, but in ignorance of why they are.

Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development

In Stage 4 - Maintaining Social Order...people begin to consider society as a whole when making judgments. The focus is on maintaining law and order by following the rules, doing one’s duty and respecting authority. The problem in the world these days is which authority do we need to consider? Is it possible to help everyone in the world without sacrifice? Will people submit to standard of living sacrifice in order to help emerging labor markets? And if so, are we helping everyone or are we helping the wealthy?

Kohlbergs scale brings up issues that the Christian church might examine.

Piaget looks interesting also. Piaget's stage theory

Until Americans graduate a few levels, we wont be willing to accommodate global development as long as it conflicts with our standard of living.

Edited by Phat, : fixed a few things


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 450 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 180 of 675 (587711)
10-20-2010 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Thugpreacha
10-20-2010 11:17 AM


Whoops
Until Americans graduate a few levels, we wont be willing to accommodate global development as long as it conflicts with our standard of living.

And why should we accommodate global development at the expense of our standard of living?

Text hidden.

Edited by Coyote, : Hiding text.


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