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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 159 of 675 (435307)
11-20-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
11-20-2007 10:03 AM


Re: Does God much care if we talk to Her?
Your title and the content of the post seem unrelated. Let me try to address them separately.
First the post sub-title: "Does God much care if we talk to Her?"
There is absolutely no way that anyone can honestly answer that. How can I tell what God wants?
Now let me try to address the post itself.
You provide a quote from Spong and then state, "Spong speaks of the Bible as a story of people throughout time seeking to understand their God experience."
But then you go on to ask, "So is God knowable or not?"
That is unrelated to what Spong is talking about. God and God experience are two different concepts.
What we can know about GOD is only some god we create, our own personal God experience. It is that which the Bible and other things can help us understand, but it is never more than a Map, it is not the Territory.
Do you personally ever believe that when you are saying a prayer that it is being heard by God or do you consider the idea irrelevant?
Irrelevant.
Prayer if done properly is a form of contemplation. It is an intimate time of reflection and should be used as such. It is not some wish list or request line.
The key is that YOU must hear, that you put aside the outside voices and honestly listen to yourself, look at what YOU are saying, question what YOU are saying, rebut what YOU are saying. Prayer should be a moment when YOU listen to YOU and when YOU honestly question what YOU say and do.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 11-20-2007 10:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 11-27-2007 7:59 AM jar has replied
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 01-25-2008 6:10 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 161 of 675 (436739)
11-27-2007 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
11-27-2007 7:59 AM


Re: Being Honest with what we believe
You lost me again. It says it is a reply to Message 159 but nothing in the post appears to be related to anything in Message 159.
So what if a Christian was trying to do the best that they could, except that they were afraid to throw out the dogma they had been taught and the preconceived ideas that they had come to believe? Would this make them WRONG?
Wrong? Not sure I understand. If they held on to something that was wrong, false, incorrect then they would be willfully ignorant. If they refused to question something for fear it would be show to be false, then they would just have a weak and pitiful belief.
What do such questions have to do with the quote from me that IIRC is from "On Christianity"?
Some people worship the source and ignore the content of human experience.
Huh?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 11-27-2007 7:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 11-27-2007 12:15 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 163 of 675 (436762)
11-27-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
11-27-2007 12:15 PM


Re: Translation to JarSpeak
Proverbs 1
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
If you want to play the silly quotemine game, remember that I have been doing it longer than you and I am likely better at it.
The various Bibles are a big ass resource written by a blue brazillion different authors and redacted by a gaggle more then translated by another band of merry (need I say Gay) men.
What ever point you happen to want to support, or refute, you can cobble together some quotes from the Bible to prove your point.
In the end, you have nothing.
If you are not to be a fool despising wisdom and discipline, you need to learn to think, examine and question on your own.
Did you even continue reading Proverb 3? I doubt it, because if you had you would have found...
13 Blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
the man who gains understanding,
14 for she is more profitable than silver
and yields better returns than gold.
and
21 My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment,
do not let them out of your sight;
22 they will be life for you,
an ornament to grace your neck.
and
35 The wise inherit honor,
but fools he holds up to shame.
Read all of the material Phat, don't just skim and grab some part out of context as though it supports your position because it is likely that there is a reader out there who actually has read the whole thing.
quote:
Is it possible to accept full responsibility for all of our own actions and at the same time "not be wise in our own eyes"?
Of course. In fact, what do the two even have to do with each other? Who other than you should be responsible for your own actions?
quote:
Is it possible to accept responsibility for what we do and still "lean not on our own understanding"?
In the end, as Proverbs 3 actually says if you read the whole thing, it is only what you know that you can work with. Again, how does accepting responsibility exclude understanding? Don't you think when you do something wrong it might be a good idea to understand what it was and why it was wrong?
quote:
How do you interpret the meaning behind the wisdom of the Proverb?
Did you actually read the Proverb or are you asking me to address the little quotemined part you posted?
quote:
Why is it that you always make me explain myself further? In so doing, you force me to conform to your logic, reason, and reality standards rather than simply using your intuitive speculations on what I am talking about!
Because I thought the goal was to actually answer and discuss and not for me to just intuit what I think you are saying.
By the way Phat, the whole series, Proverbs 1 through 4 are on guess what, The value of wisdom. They are about learning from those who went before you, on the value of knowledge, on the need to continue learning, on how wisdom is more valuable than gold or anything else, yet you pulled one little piece out of context as though it opposed wisdom.
Even the passage you quoted is only saying "Don't think you know it all."
Why do so many of the CCOI folk choose to quotemine? Do they really think that just because they don't read the whole thing that others do not? Just because they do not get challenged when in the Christian Communion of Bobbleheads, do they really think the rest of us will just sit and nod?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 11-27-2007 12:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 12-23-2007 3:40 AM jar has replied
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 11-01-2010 10:43 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 675 (443000)
12-23-2007 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
12-23-2007 3:40 AM


Re: Moving beyond Dogma
No.
There is nothing in reason, logic and reality that is in anyway a problem for religion, unless you think religion should be unreasonable, illogical and based on unreality.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 12-23-2007 3:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 01-07-2008 11:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 167 of 675 (446849)
01-07-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
01-07-2008 11:05 AM


Re: Moving beyond Dogma
Do you personally believe in the supernatural?
Yup, but I also know I have no way of knowing if I am right.
Do you believe that GOD interacts with humanity, even though we are too insignificant in comparison, perhaps, to understand it?
Yup, but I also know I have no way of knowing if I am right. It's not simply a matter of understanding, it is an issue of even being able to determine if it has any validity. There is no way to tell a miracle from a fluke, or if it is God talking to you or you are just talking to yourself.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 01-07-2008 11:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 170 of 675 (587007)
10-16-2010 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Phat
10-16-2010 7:28 AM


Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
Phat writes:
1) As a self proclaimed Christian, do you believe that it is important to
believe that GOD exists? The alternative, of course, would be to simply not worry about such unanswerable questions, I suppose.
I imagine that it would be rather difficult to be a Christian that does not believe GOD exists. It is not impossible though; look at how many Christian Clergy market Gods that are one evil bastard at times but then immediately market the same God as a blundering idiot and then a pitiful joke.
Phat writes:
2) In your opinion, are many Christians simply lying to themselves when they claim that God either speaks to them or to society in general through scripture?(Scripture in this context meaning anything taken in any context from any Bible)
I have no idea.
Phat writes:
3) Is it important for us as Christians to have a comforting belief that God has time for us and cares?
Huh? In Christianity there is no such need. Now individuals might have such needs but I doubt very much it has anything to do with Christianity.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 10-16-2010 7:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 10-17-2010 11:00 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 172 of 675 (587166)
10-17-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Phat
10-17-2010 11:00 AM


Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
Phat writes:
Beliefs exist for a reason. What reasons would be logical for anyone supporting them trusting an unknowable God?
There does not have to be a good reason for a belief and beliefs are quite often unreasonable, illogical, irrational and inconsistent.
Exactly how does one trust God in the first place?
Too often the phrase "trust god" is far more appropriately used in reference to Alfred E.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 10-17-2010 11:00 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 10-19-2010 3:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 174 of 675 (587583)
10-19-2010 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
10-19-2010 3:42 PM


Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
It can also mean trusting that what we want to happen deserves to happen since it seems part of a higher purpose and plan that transcends human whim.
So trust God to make what YOU want to happen happen. Got it!

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 10-19-2010 3:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 10-19-2010 3:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 176 of 675 (587585)
10-19-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
10-19-2010 3:52 PM


Re: Is it unreasonable to trust that fairness is a basic right?
The question was about Trust in God, but so far all I see is "What Phat wants".
It appears that the God you create and claim to worship is little more than an errand boy or perhaps a Sugar Daddy.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 10-19-2010 3:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 10-19-2010 4:07 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 178 of 675 (587590)
10-19-2010 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
10-19-2010 4:07 PM


Re: Is it unreasonable to trust that fairness is a basic right?
What religion imagines a God that does not care?
Granted I will admit that the God I worship is basically a God I have imagined. How could it be any other way?
And why would any sane person want to worship a God who was too important to give them any help in life? It is impossible to relate to such a God. It is as you said before...how could an ant love a human or look up to such a creature?
How could I look up to a God whom I couldn't even get to know?
Again, the emphasis you present is all about "What's good for Phat."
Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)

            1. Obedience and punishment orientation

                    (How can I avoid punishment?)

2. Self-interest orientation (What's in it for me?)

Level 2 (Conventional) 3. Interpersonal accord and conformity (Social norms) (The good boy/good girl attitude) 4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (Law and order morality) Level 3 (Post-Conventional) 5. Social contract orientation 6. Universal ethical principles (Principled conscience)
Would you call that Stage 2 of Level 1?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 10-19-2010 4:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 10-20-2010 11:17 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 675 (587720)
10-20-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Phat
10-20-2010 11:55 AM


Re: Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development
I don't believe anyone has said that Global Development must affect our standard of living negatively. But even if it were true, we have nothing to say about what the rest of the world does. They can develop regardless of what we do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Phat, posted 10-20-2010 11:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 10-21-2010 11:23 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 184 of 675 (587912)
10-21-2010 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Phat
10-21-2010 11:23 AM


Re: America and Morality
Phat writes:
Sometimes I think that we helped construct our own competition.
There is a reason why you often see several different fast food franchises right across the street from each other.
Phat writes:
As A supposed Christian Nation, what should we do? WWJD? Would Jesus advocate a competitive economic climate? Do the "least of these, my brothers" have to pay retail? Is it wrong to think of ourselves before we think of others?
Of course absolutely nothing in that is related to the issue. India and China can decide to compete regardless of what we think.
Phat writes:
I watched an interesting movie last night. Where In The World Is Bin Laden? It was actually an eye opening movie in that it showed a very human face to the Muslim people. It made me wonder why we spent ourselves nearly bankrupt in order to capture one guy....and why we are still spending money in Afghanistan, a country that historically has proven impossible to conquer.
Again, totally irrelevant to the issue being discussed. We spent the money. Period. It's gone.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 10-21-2010 11:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 675 (589270)
11-01-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Phat
11-01-2010 10:43 AM


Re: Translation to JarSpeak
Do you believe that the Biblical Authors wanted to be truthful as best as they could and wanted the story of Mans understanding of God to be told? Or do you believe that they cheaply wanted to merely earn a living?
Again, that is a false dichotomy.
The Bible is not just about God. The stories have many purposes. The various authors wanted to tell a story, entertain, enlighten and educate, document laws, create an identity, preserve an identity, a variety of different purposes.
The same is true of the editors, redactors and translators. The goal of Constantine's Bibles was to be uniform, large, imposing and impressive so that each new church had one.
The creators of the King James Version had similar purposes with the added need to walk a line between offending Protestants and Roman Catholics, to tone down the anti-pope rhetoric and again, to provide one unified Bible for all the churches. It was meant to be a politically correct Bible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 11-01-2010 10:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 11-01-2010 11:23 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 188 of 675 (589281)
11-01-2010 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
11-01-2010 11:23 AM


Re: The Value Of Reading The Bible(s) Today
Any God that can be contained in one Book cannot be very big.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 11-01-2010 11:23 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 11-01-2010 12:01 PM jar has replied
 Message 196 by iano, posted 11-02-2010 9:23 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 190 of 675 (589285)
11-01-2010 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Phat
11-01-2010 12:01 PM


Re: Character of GOD, God, and gods
I doubt it.
What GOD is does not depend on what we imagine.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 11-01-2010 12:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 11-01-2010 12:04 PM jar has replied

  
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