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Author Topic:   The evidence for design and a designer - AS OF 10/27, SUMMARY MESSAGES ONLY
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 243 of 648 (587622)
10-19-2010 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Buzsaw
10-19-2010 6:51 PM


Re: The Biblical Designer Did The Whole Enchilada
Buzsaw writes:
IDists observe and come to a different conlusion.
It isn't enough to just come to a conclusion. You need to show why your conclusion is better. That's why people are constantly asking IDists to do some experiments to verify their conclusions. You can't just piggyback on the data collected by scientists. You have to collect your own data if you want to be taken seriously.
Edited by ringo, : Spell7ing

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Buzsaw, posted 10-19-2010 6:51 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Dawn Bertot, posted 10-20-2010 1:46 AM ringo has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 244 of 648 (587624)
10-19-2010 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by onifre
10-19-2010 6:31 PM


onifre writes:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm doing it just to piss you off.
It annoys me more that you are allowed to post under 2 different accounts.
I will ask the moderators to merge your Onifre and Dawn Bertot accounts.
Edited by Panda, : added quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by onifre, posted 10-19-2010 6:31 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by onifre, posted 10-19-2010 7:34 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 245 of 648 (587629)
10-19-2010 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Panda
10-19-2010 7:14 PM


I will ask the moderators to merge your Onifre and Dawn Bertot accounts.
- Bertot wishes! Plus he couldn't handle the intense level of THC that would hit his vains if he and I merged as one.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Panda, posted 10-19-2010 7:14 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 246 of 648 (587648)
10-19-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by hooah212002
10-19-2010 5:38 PM


So, you are saying NO order happens on it's own and your designer has it's hands in every little aspect of everything? The droplet of water I mentioned: your designer did that too?
This is an idiotic comment and not worthy of attention
I fear you are projecting your own inadequacies onto others, my dear boy.
funny, I still dont have a test postulated for the eternality of matter. Think that will be coming anytime soon?
Go back and read what I posted. Take a gander at the circle of life. All natural and can be explained without the need for any designer. Look at a walnut seed. We can watch it from seed to sapling to tree. That is order, is it not? Was your designer there to make it grow? IF so, how do you know that? How can you prove it?
No moron you cannot explain how the things of existence are here to begin with. Show me your scientific test that proves what. I dont need to go back and read what you restated in weaker fashion
Are you really asking for evidence that things happen naturally? Have you ever taken a nature hike? Have you ever looked at nature? WHERE IS YOUR DESIGNER????? NATURE happens naturally. The life we see EVERY DAY happens naturally: no mythical creatures necessary.
Wow, it would be a real pleasure to have someone as simple as yourself in a in person public debate, it would be alot of fun. You cant even understand what i am asking for
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by hooah212002, posted 10-19-2010 5:38 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by bluescat48, posted 10-20-2010 1:00 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 247 of 648 (587650)
10-20-2010 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Dawn Bertot
10-19-2010 11:42 PM


You cant even understand what i am asking for
Obviously, neither can anyone else. The topic is evidence for design and a designer. It is your topic, your idea and since you claim there is a designer, it is up to you to provide evidence, which thus far is lacking.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Dawn Bertot, posted 10-19-2010 11:42 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 248 of 648 (587651)
10-20-2010 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
10-19-2010 7:13 PM


Re: The Biblical Designer Did The Whole Enchilada
You need to show why your conclusion is better.
this is comical. better than what? you have nothing except experiments with immediate material, the conclusion of which is nothing
Can your precious science please give me a test that measures where the things came from to accomplish evolution
Hooah, tells me to take a walk in the wood. Whats your test?
dawn bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 10-19-2010 7:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 10-20-2010 2:16 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 249 of 648 (587652)
10-20-2010 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by ringo
10-19-2010 1:47 PM


Try to keep up. Nobody cares about the "eternality of matter". Science only concerns itself with the matter that exists today and that existed in the observable past.
Of course you dont, because if you are asked to answer a natural conclusion of your position, gets thrown in the same mix with everybody else. And oh heavens we cant have that
Ringo, any theory dealing with physical realities has to concern itself with it origination point and its mechanism of origination
Mine is obvious order and obvious design as a result of that order. WHAT IS YOURS?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by ringo, posted 10-19-2010 1:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 10-20-2010 2:21 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 250 of 648 (587653)
10-20-2010 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by jar
10-19-2010 5:24 PM


Re: The third possibility
No one but you has ever even mentioned "the eternality of matter" whatever that even means.
Its a natural conclusion of your position, genius. Its something that needs to be addressed.
If I am required to show proof of my design, which is obvious order, what is your conclusion of your studies and how in this world do you demonstrate it. Would your claim be matter eternal or what? What would your choice be
avoiding this very valid point wont help you
Oh yeah before I forget, are you going to explain in detail the other possibilites outside the two, Im still waiting
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 10-19-2010 5:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by jar, posted 10-20-2010 10:14 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 285 by Taq, posted 10-20-2010 11:58 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 251 of 648 (587654)
10-20-2010 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by hooah212002
10-19-2010 5:38 PM


All natural and can be explained without the need for any designer. Look at a walnut seed. We can watch it from seed to sapling to tree.
Is that all ntural cereal or what?
Where did the material that made it a seed come from and then beyond that
Its not a matter of NEED for a designer ,it is a matter of what the evidence will allow and it strongly points to a design by a designer
Are you really asking for evidence that things happen naturally? Have you ever taken a nature hike? Have you ever looked at nature? WHERE IS YOUR DESIGNER????? NATURE happens naturally. The life we see EVERY DAY happens naturally: no mythical creatures necessary.
So after all your bolstering and bluster about experiments, your recommendation is a walk in the park?
How will my observations in the park tell what happened before Time zero, is there just more time to infinity, or did it just pop into existence.
I need a test
Dawn Bertot
But more importantly, what test do you have for that. A stroll in the universe, perhaps

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by hooah212002, posted 10-19-2010 5:38 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by hooah212002, posted 10-20-2010 9:48 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 286 by Taq, posted 10-20-2010 12:00 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 252 of 648 (587656)
10-20-2010 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Dawn Bertot
10-20-2010 1:46 AM


Dawn Bertot writes:
ringo writes:
You need to show why your conclusion is better.
better than what?
Better than whatever it is that you want to replace. You haven't been very lucid about what you want to accomplish with this thread. First tell us what your idea is better than and then show us how it is better.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Can your precious science please give me a test that measures where the things came from to accomplish evolution
Knowing where matter came from doesn't help us understand how evolution works, so it may be interesting but it isn't particularly relevant.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Dawn Bertot, posted 10-20-2010 1:46 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Dawn Bertot, posted 10-20-2010 2:31 AM ringo has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 253 of 648 (587657)
10-20-2010 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Taq
10-19-2010 5:39 PM


We can evidence the unintelligent mechanisms that result in the final product. That is how. We can design experiments whereby these forces are demonstrated.
But you cannot tell me how, when and where the unintelligent mechanism got thier start
Obvious order and law is what I use to determine an origination point of those unintelligent mechanisms
If yours is not, can you demonstrate matter eternal, OR HECK ANYTHING ETERNAL
You need to follow the same rules you set out for me, OK?
what is your test to determine why anything is here or where it came from
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Taq, posted 10-19-2010 5:39 PM Taq has replied

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 Message 287 by Taq, posted 10-20-2010 12:04 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 254 of 648 (587658)
10-20-2010 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Dawn Bertot
10-20-2010 1:50 AM


Dawn Bertot writes:
Ringo, any theory dealing with physical realities has to concern itself with it origination point and its mechanism of origination
Nonsense. A physical reality like a car can be "dealt with" without knowing anything about the smelting of iron or the mining of iron or the geology of iron formations or the origin of iron atoms. A mechanic can formulate a theory of why an engine doesn't run without such extraneous details. The same is true for understanding the day-to-day workings of evolution.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Dawn Bertot, posted 10-20-2010 1:50 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Dawn Bertot, posted 10-20-2010 2:41 AM ringo has replied
 Message 261 by dennis780, posted 10-20-2010 3:22 AM ringo has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 255 of 648 (587660)
10-20-2010 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by ringo
10-20-2010 2:16 AM


Knowing where matter came from doesn't help us understand how evolution works, so it may be interesting but it isn't particularly relevant.
Who cares how evolution works, but answering questions about change (Evo), will lead eventually to its natural conclusion
Do you see how easy it is to set you fellas on the run
So you are saying, understanding design will help you understand how order works, BUT
understanding where matter came from wont help you understand evolution.. Your kidding right?
Please tell me you are kidding
Ringo, try and stay focused. Its not a matter of INTERESTING, its a matter of logical deduction.
If I am required to show how order mplies design, the certainly you would need to show that evo does not have a designer
You can do this simply by doing a great scientific test, the kind that you brag about, to determine matters origination source
You need to require of yourself, what you say I must demonstrate
if knowing the initiation source of design is irrelevant, by any test, then showing how order leads to design is not necessary either
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 10-20-2010 2:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 10-20-2010 2:47 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 256 of 648 (587661)
10-20-2010 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
10-20-2010 2:21 AM


A physical reality like a car can be "dealt with" without knowing anything about the smelting of iron or the mining of iron or the geology of iron formations or the origin of iron atoms.
Wow this is funny. Ringo, you are rquiring me to show how design is demonstrated by order and then you turn right around and say its not necessary for you t show evos origination source because it doesnt matter
Ringo that is completely stupid
Ringo if it doesnt matter, then order is enough to demonstrate design, because just like you observe evolution and its origin doesnt matter, I observe order without knowing its origination
so does design matter to order or not? According to your reasoning it does not. It is evidence of itself, even by your admission and illustrations
Geeesss
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 10-20-2010 2:21 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 10-20-2010 2:56 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 257 of 648 (587662)
10-20-2010 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Dawn Bertot
10-20-2010 2:31 AM


Dawn Bertot writes:
Who cares how evolution works, but answering questions about change (Evo), will lead eventually to its natural conclusion
We care about how evolution works because of its implications in agriculture, medicine, etc. Anything to do with the origins of the chemicals has much less practical value.
Dawn Bertot writes:
If I am required to show how order mplies design, the certainly you would need to show that evo does not have a designer
Nope. As others have told you, even if we did conclude that evolution had a designer, that information would be of little value. We care how it works, like we care how a car works.
Dawn Bertot writes:
if knowing the initiation source of design is irrelevant, by any test, then showing how order leads to design is not necessary either
You have that backwards. We don't care as much about origins as we do about mechanics because the mechanics have useful applications. You, on the other hand, want to overturn the accepted paradigm, so you most certainly do have to show your work.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Dawn Bertot, posted 10-20-2010 2:31 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

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