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Author Topic:   "Creation Science" experiments.
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 337 of 396 (586242)
10-12-2010 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Just being real
10-12-2010 4:02 AM


Re: How Intelligent Design qualifies as a scientific theory
Well I understand your desire to trivialize this as a "distraction," but bacteria have a definite biological need to rapidly adapt to ever changing environments and food sources. As I said, one of the main ways that they appear to have been designed to do this, is through plasmid mutations. And no, I don't at all deny that some have had beneficial mutations take place within the chromosomal DNA. But I think the exact mechanism is controversial because some results suggest a directed mutation specifically enabling adaptation to the environment. A conclusion which is drawn in part by the fact that the mutation rate occurred at a much higher rate than random mutations could produce.
And even though most of these chromosomal mutations involves certain environmental conditions that make these mutations phenotypically beneficial, they frequently eliminate or reduce pre-existing cellular systems and functions. Therefore they require the prior existence of the targeted cellular systems, rather than providing a genetic mechanism that accounts for the origin of biological systems or functions.
You've made a number of gross assumptions and unfounded leaps in your claims here.
#1) Not all bacteria rapidly adapt to ever changing environments and food sources. Some do. Some don't.
If this is your criteria for design, then they ALL must behave as if designed to do so. You can't have them be designed so that some do and some don't, seemingly at random. That's not design.
#2) You are claiming that the results suggest a "directed mutation" because a mutation arises which "fits" an environment. In order to make this assertion, you would have to be able to sample ALL the mutations which occur in an entire population of bacteria over and given time period and check them against ALL POSSIBLE mutations which potentially could occur.
Only then can you conclude that -
a) Only beneficial mutations occurred, or that they occurred at a SIGNIFICANTLY higher rate than neutral or negative mutations.
b) That the BEST POSSIBLE mutation occurred rather than a seemingly random adaptation which happens to work out better than average.
Once you can demonstrate BOTH of these, repeatedly, in multiple experiments, with multiple kinds of bacteria, in multiple environments -- THEN we can talk about your results.
#3) You are drawing a conclusion based on: "the fact that the mutation rate occurred at a much higher rate than random mutations could produce. "
Have you provided evidence which examines ALL potential source of mutation? Where is your control group? How do you determine what the random mutation rate is and what it can produce? How have you measured your alternative mutation rate and determined that it is higher? How much higher?
This sounds exactly like a claim you've made up out of whole cloth and are trying to pass off as fact. Where's the EXHAUSTIVE research demonstrating the claim?
#4) You claim that mutations "frequently eliminate or reduce pre-existing cellular systems or functions".
What do you mean by "frequently"? 50% of the time? Have you demonstrated this?
Again, in order to make this judgment you have to know ALL the mutations which occur in a given population over time.
If the ONLY mutation which occurs does this and no other mutations occur, then great. That's very supportive of your claim.
However, if in a population of a billion bacteria, 50,000 mutations do what you are saying and 125,000,000 mutations don't. That's pretty damning.
The ONLY way to accurately judge is to decode the DNA of the parent bacteria from which the population spawns, and ALSO have each and every member of subsequent generations decoded to monitor changes.
Now, that's not impossible - in theory.
The problem is, the proponents of ID have absolutely no interest in running ANY experiments, let alone expensive intense experiments which would prove their claim.
You know why? Because they don't care about the facts. The ID movement is a religious/political movement. All they want to do is "raise questions" and "teach the controversy". It's totally irrelevant to them that they are 100% wrong on the issue.
Why bother collecting evidence which MIGHT prove you wrong when you can just make a baseless claim for free and hope the public can't tell the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Just being real, posted 10-12-2010 4:02 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Just being real, posted 10-13-2010 8:05 AM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 338 of 396 (586243)
10-12-2010 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by Just being real
10-12-2010 2:24 AM


Re: CASE CLOSED!
but there are some who pass by and see my posts, that will realize that there are logical reasons to have faith.
There can be no "logical reason" to "have faith".
Faith is, by definition, the belief in something without evidence.
You don't have "faith" that gravity holds you to the Earth. It's observable. It's testable. There's evidence for it.
You _know_ that gravity holds you.
You have "faith" that there is a magical wizard somewhere outside of the Universe pulling strings because you can't _know_ it. You can't _know_ it because it's not observable, it's not testable and there's no evidence to support it.
You have "faith" that your religion is right. Meanwhile, everyone else in every other religion which exists or has ever existed also has "faith" that their religion is right.
You all have the exact same lack of evidence. You all have the exact same certainty. And, for most of history, you've all been killing one another over who's lack of evidence is better than the next guys.
Perhaps it's time to stop taking things on "faith", and more importantly, to stop trying to replace things we _know_ with things we want to believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Just being real, posted 10-12-2010 2:24 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Just being real, posted 10-13-2010 8:05 AM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 361 of 396 (586464)
10-13-2010 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Just being real
10-13-2010 8:05 AM


Re: CASE CLOSED!
Aaa...but you are mistaken my friend. You do have to exercise faith in gravity to hold you to the earth. In fact you do it so much that you do not even think about it. You do not walk around holding on to things that are bolted down to the earth. Why is that? It is because you have faith in your experience and knowledge of gravity. If you thought that at any second it could turn off and you would go floating away, then you would behave differently. By the way that may be the way a lot of people define faith, but in the Christian experience, it is defined a little differently.
You are confusing "gravity" with "continuation of gravity".
I don't have "faith" in gravity. Gravity exists. It's observable, testable. I can (theoretically) go to outer space and experience significantly less gravity. etc.
What you are assuming is that I have faith that the laws of the natural world will not suddenly radically change.
I would argue that you don't need to have faith in a negative. I don't have "faith" than things AREN'T going to radically change. My entire life experience has been that the laws have never changed. The ENTIRE human experience has been that the laws have never changed. From what we can tell of astrophysics, geology, chemistry, etc, the laws have never changed.
I don't take it on "faith" that they will continue to behave as they have always behaved, it's a testable series of observations which demonstrate that this is the nature of our universe.
No faith required.
Note that this verse describes a person first coming to the understanding that God exists, and then placing their faith in that God, that He will reward those who diligently seek Him. So are we just supposed to have blind faith that God exists? Not at all.
Right, according to the Bible, you should have "faith" in order to _earn a reward_.
Sigh. Just when I think this religious is as childish as it can possibly be, some Christan comes along and provides me with a quote making the religion look even worse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Just being real, posted 10-13-2010 8:05 AM Just being real has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(2)
Message 362 of 396 (586466)
10-13-2010 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Just being real
10-13-2010 8:05 AM


Re: How Intelligent Design qualifies as a scientific theory
#1) Not all bacteria rapidly adapt to ever changing environments and food sources. Some do. Some don't.
I never said they all do. I said they all have a need to.
And they don't. Some bacteria haven't changed in a VERY VERY long time. You are making unfounded primary claims and then basing your conclusions upon those errors.
Fix your initial claim.
#1) You can't have them be designed so that some do and some don't, seemingly at random. That's not design.
That's not true. Your statement presumes to know the intentions of the designer. Some species could actually be designed to have an abnormally large amount of offspring to "fail"
Let me rephrase your argument for you so that you can see what you sound like:
"I know the designer exists because only a designer could design things to look like there isn't a designer."
Does that REALLY sound rational to you? honestly?
No I think that burden of proof lays upon the one using the study with the "mutated bacteria" as evidence for natural evolution and a mechanism to demonstrate how life could have arrived.
Well, too bad for you that what you _think_ about it doesn't matter.
You are making a claim - that these mutations exist and are the result of a designer.
In order to positively prove that claim, you need to measure ALL the mutations in order to determine that your claim (that a Jewish Wizard is Magically controlling the mutations) has validity.
I don't have enough "faith" in the bacteria alone to accept the evolutionary hypothesis. But that's just me.
So, when asked to provide evidence in support of your claim, you tell us that you can't be bothered to, because you reject our evidence based on your beliefs.
Sigh. This is why no one takes your side of the debate seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Just being real, posted 10-13-2010 8:05 AM Just being real has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 381 of 396 (587659)
10-20-2010 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Just being real
10-19-2010 3:17 PM


Re: How Intelligent Design qualifies as a scientific theory
My comment was that creationists argue that these alleles were likely designed into the species for just such a purpose, from creation (their origins).
I'm having trouble following.
In the case of Lemski, the new mutations were NEW mutations. They didn't exist in the bacteria PRIOR to the generation in which they first appeared.
So, unless this programming was in the form of invisible fairy DNA which can't be seen, I have to assume that the claim is that the DNA was "designed" to mutate.
So, if I'm reading this right:
Scientists: "Evolution occurs because mutations cause changes and natural selection causes some changes to flourish while others die out"
Creationists: "Evolution is false because magic causes mutations which cause changes and natural selection causes some changes to flourish while others die out."
It seems to me that the Creationists (who've spent 150 years claiming evolution is 100% false) are now just saying that evolution is 100% true but are adding the word "magic" in to the middle of the equation and pretending like they've won.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Just being real, posted 10-19-2010 3:17 PM Just being real has not replied

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