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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 160 of 675 (436702)
11-27-2007 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by jar
11-20-2007 11:00 AM


Being Honest with what we believe
Jar writes:
How can I tell what God wants?
I am rarely 100% sure, but try to do the best I can except when it is extremely uncomfortable for me to do so. I am a wimp when it comes to suffering!
Jar writes:
We are the sum of our experiences.
I am also a Christian. As I see Christianity is both a set of teachings and also the body, the communion of Christians down through the ages. Some Christians were great, some evil, most simply forgotten. All though were Christian.
Later I learned more of the history of this thing, this communion called Christianity. What I learned was not always pleasant, much in fact was horrific. Very little was as simple or serene as what I had been taught.
What I learned was that down through the ages many horrific things were done in the name of Christianity and by Christians. Protestants oppressed Catholics, Catholics oppressed Protestants, and both oppressed every other religion. Down through the ages the Jew came in for special attention, being expelled from nearly every country and their property seized. Time after time it happened.
So what if a Christian was trying to do the best that they could, except that they were afraid to throw out the dogma they had been taught and the preconceived ideas that they had come to believe? Would this make them WRONG? Some people worship the source and ignore the content of human experience.
Edited by Phat, : fixed sub title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 11-20-2007 11:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 11-27-2007 12:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 675 (436746)
11-27-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
11-27-2007 12:04 PM


Translation to JarSpeak
Why is it that you always make me explain myself further? In so doing, you force me to conform to your logic, reason, and reality standards rather than simply using your intuitive speculations on what I am talking about! Oh well.
  • Why is your belief paradigm the only logical one that you can accept? As an example, lets contrast Proverbs with Jars Belief statement:
    Jar writes:
    Joe taught all the classes, and he explained that when you were little, and baptized, your parents and god-parents had taken responsibility for your education and acts, but that now that you were growing up, it was time that YOU took responsibility for yourself.
    contrasted with:
    NIV writes:
    Prov 3:5-7
    5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
    6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make your paths straight.
    7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.
    Is it possible to accept full responsibility for all of our own actions and at the same time "not be wise in our own eyes"?
    Is it possible to accept responsibility for what we do and still "lean not on our own understanding"?
    How do you interpret the meaning behind the wisdom of the Proverb?
    (BTW this has nothing to do with the previous post. This is a new sub topic within our Great Debate. We were essentially discussing C.C.O.I. philosophy in light of logic, reason, and reality and whether the two differ in any way.)

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 161 by jar, posted 11-27-2007 12:04 PM jar has replied

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     Message 163 by jar, posted 11-27-2007 12:50 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 164 of 675 (442919)
    12-23-2007 3:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 163 by jar
    11-27-2007 12:50 PM


    Moving beyond Dogma
    Jar writes:
    If you are not to be a fool despising wisdom and discipline, you need to learn to think, examine and question on your own.
    OK OK, I get it! Using logic, reason, and reality, right?
    So...in your eyes, what is (or should be) the future of religion on Earth? Is it outdated?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 163 by jar, posted 11-27-2007 12:50 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 166 of 675 (446847)
    01-07-2008 11:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 165 by jar
    12-23-2007 12:19 PM


    Re: Moving beyond Dogma
    Jar writes:
    There is nothing in reason, logic and reality that is in anyway a problem for religion, unless you think religion should be unreasonable, illogical and based on unreality.
    Do you personally believe in the supernatural?
    Do you believe that GOD interacts with humanity, even though we are too insignificant in comparison, perhaps, to understand it?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 165 by jar, posted 12-23-2007 12:19 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 168 of 675 (450953)
    01-25-2008 6:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 159 by jar
    11-20-2007 11:00 AM


    Re: Does God much care if we talk to Her?
    Jar writes:
    God and God experience are two different concepts.
    What we can know about GOD is only some god we create, our own personal God experience. It is that which the Bible and other things can help us understand, but it is never more than a Map, it is not the Territory.
    Can you explain to us again what the territory symbolizes and what the map symbolizes?
    Jar writes:
    The key is that YOU must hear, that you put aside the outside voices and honestly listen to yourself, look at what YOU are saying, question what YOU are saying, rebut what YOU are saying. Prayer should be a moment when YOU listen to YOU and when YOU honestly question what YOU say and do.
    So in other words, .....if I continually question myself, is that not indicative of perpetual uncertainty?
    Edited by Phat, : add GD Sign
    Edited by Phat, : rephrased my last question to reflect current beliefs and questions.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 169 of 675 (587001)
    10-16-2010 7:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by jar
    05-29-2007 2:18 PM


    C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
    1) As a self proclaimed Christian, do you believe that it is important to
    believe that GOD exists? The alternative, of course, would be to simply not worry about such unanswerable questions, I suppose.
    2) In your opinion, are many Christians simply lying to themselves when they claim that God either speaks to them or to society in general through scripture?(Scripture in this context meaning anything taken in any context from any Bible)
    3) Is it important for us as Christians to have a comforting belief that God has time for us and cares?
    Also, jar..feel free to expound upon other questions asked in earlier posts that we never finished discussing a couple of years ago. )
    Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 2:18 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 171 of 675 (587163)
    10-17-2010 11:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 170 by jar
    10-16-2010 9:44 AM


    Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
    In going back through this thread, I noticed that we previously spent a lot of time discussing the implications of God having foreknowledge.
    You laid out a logical case against God having (or allowing Himself to have) such knowledge IF He intentionally created people who would end up damned.
    Club Christian has so many different chapters and contrary beliefs!
    If GOD is unknowable in this life, it would really make me sad. It would be like having a Father whom I never met nor knew (or even could know, evidently) who left me one note telling me "Johnny, I love you and want you to try and do your best! I have given you the knowledge to differentiate right from wrong, and I expect you to learn to make wise choices during your life. This is my charge to you. I cannot guarantee that we will ever meet, yet I want you to love others and try and do your best to get along with them.
    Much Love, GOD"
    jar writes:
    I imagine that it would be rather difficult to be a Christian that does not believe GOD exists.
    Beliefs exist for a reason. What reasons would be logical for anyone supporting them trusting an unknowable God?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 170 by jar, posted 10-16-2010 9:44 AM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 173 of 675 (587581)
    10-19-2010 3:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 172 by jar
    10-17-2010 11:59 AM


    Re: C.C.O.I. Christianity versus Logic,Reason, & Reality
    jar writes:
    Exactly how does one trust God in the first place?
    We both agree that we cannot know anything for sure regarding God...specifically GOD. In my opinion, trusting God equates to trusting that there is a benevolent Higher Power who has character, personality, and loving favor to we undeserving humans. ( )
    It can also mean trusting that what we want to happen deserves to happen since it seems part of a higher purpose and plan that transcends human whim.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by jar, posted 10-17-2010 11:59 AM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 175 of 675 (587584)
    10-19-2010 3:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 174 by jar
    10-19-2010 3:46 PM


    Is it unreasonable to trust that fairness is a basic right?
    On an altruistic empathetic level, I just want everyone to be content and not in want of basic modes of survival and reasonable comfort. (A House with no leaking roof and adequate climate, clothes that are functional as well as dignified, and food that is nutritious and in good supply)
    Beyond the basics, it is probably better to be not content, since we need to progress as a species and because contentment may lead to apathy.
    As to what I want, I want what I grew up with. Perhaps it was excessive, but I never felt that it was. If this is too unrealistic of a request, lets say that at a minimum, I want what I said above. Warm and secure shelter, decent clothes, and enough food.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 174 by jar, posted 10-19-2010 3:46 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 177 of 675 (587586)
    10-19-2010 4:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 176 by jar
    10-19-2010 3:59 PM


    Re: Is it unreasonable to trust that fairness is a basic right?
    What religion imagines a God that does not care?
    Granted I will admit that the God I worship is basically a God I have imagined. How could it be any other way?
    And why would any sane person want to worship a God who was too important to give them any help in life? It is impossible to relate to such a God. It is as you said before...how could an ant love a human or look up to such a creature?
    How could I look up to a God whom I couldn't even get to know?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 176 by jar, posted 10-19-2010 3:59 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 179 of 675 (587706)
    10-20-2010 11:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 178 by jar
    10-19-2010 4:45 PM


    Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development
    OK, I found your source and examined the content. The accusation seems logical. I am rather infantile when it comes to what I want.
    You will find that many Americans are not only like me, but in ignorance of why they are.
    Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development
    In Stage 4 - Maintaining Social Order...people begin to consider society as a whole when making judgments. The focus is on maintaining law and order by following the rules, doing one’s duty and respecting authority. The problem in the world these days is which authority do we need to consider? Is it possible to help everyone in the world without sacrifice? Will people submit to standard of living sacrifice in order to help emerging labor markets? And if so, are we helping everyone or are we helping the wealthy?
    Kohlbergs scale brings up issues that the Christian church might examine.
    Piaget looks interesting also. Piaget's stage theory
    Until Americans graduate a few levels, we wont be willing to accommodate global development as long as it conflicts with our standard of living.
    Edited by Phat, : fixed a few things

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 181 of 675 (587717)
    10-20-2010 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 180 by Coyote
    10-20-2010 11:35 AM


    Re: Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development
    This is a private debate thread, but I suppose you can join in. (for a minute)
    Coyote writes:
    And why should we accommodate global development at the expense of our standard of living?
    Good question, and one I might ask myself. Jar? Any comment?

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 183 of 675 (587902)
    10-21-2010 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 182 by jar
    10-20-2010 12:01 PM


    America and Morality
    jar writes:
    we have nothing to say about what the rest of the world does. They can develop regardless of what we do.
    Sometimes I think that we helped construct our own competition. I suppose that we had no choice, however.
    As A supposed Christian Nation, what should we do? WWJD? Would Jesus advocate a competitive economic climate? Do the "least of these, my brothers" have to pay retail? Is it wrong to think of ourselves before we think of others? I watched an interesting movie last night. Where In The World Is Bin Laden? It was actually an eye opening movie in that it showed a very human face to the Muslim people. It made me wonder why we spent ourselves nearly bankrupt in order to capture one guy....and why we are still spending money in Afghanistan, a country that historically has proven impossible to conquer.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 185 of 675 (589265)
    11-01-2010 10:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 163 by jar
    11-27-2007 12:50 PM


    Re: Translation to JarSpeak
    Hi Jar. More Bible questions again.
    jar writes:
    Prayer if done properly is a form of contemplation. It is an intimate time of reflection and should be used as such. It is not some wish list or request line.
    The key is that YOU must hear, that you put aside the outside voices and honestly listen to yourself, look at what YOU are saying, question what YOU are saying, rebut what YOU are saying. Prayer should be a moment when YOU listen to YOU and when YOU honestly question what YOU say and do.
    There are some things that are hard for a person to do. One of them, for example, and relating to the pressured U.S. Middle Class, is to allow the rest of the world to reclaim what we took during the aberration.
    jar writes:
    The various Bibles are a big ass resource written by a blue brazillion different authors and redacted by a gaggle more then translated by another band of merry (need I say Gay) men.
    Do you believe that the Biblical Authors wanted to be truthful as best as they could and wanted the story of Mans understanding of God to be told? Or do you believe that they cheaply wanted to merely earn a living?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 163 by jar, posted 11-27-2007 12:50 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 187 of 675 (589279)
    11-01-2010 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 186 by jar
    11-01-2010 11:04 AM


    The Value Of Reading The Bible(s) Today
    jar writes:
    The Bible is not just about God. The stories have many purposes. The various authors wanted to tell a story, entertain, enlighten and educate, document laws, create an identity, preserve an identity, a variety of different purposes.
    The same is true of the editors, redactors and translators. The goal of Constantine's Bibles was to be uniform, large, imposing and impressive so that each new church had one.
    The creators of the King James Version had similar purposes with the added need to walk a line between offending Protestants and Roman Catholics, to tone down the anti-pope rhetoric and again, to provide one unified Bible for all the churches. It was meant to be a politically correct Bible.
    OK, but many of us want to know God. We are told that He is found in the Bible(s). I myself prefer to ask questions about God philosophically and to use reason to arrive at a logical understanding. The idea that Bibles were political leads me to throw them aside entirely when attempting to find mans attempts to define and explain our ideal of communicating or understanding God without limiting Him through our own desired definitions.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 186 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 11:04 AM jar has replied

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