EvC Forum: If complexity requires design, where did the Deity come from?

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Topic: If complexity requires design, where did the Deity come from?

ringo

Member (Idle past 432 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 75 of 111 (578002)
08-31-2010 12:49 PM

Reply to: Message 74 by dennis780
08-31-2010 6:46 AM

"Thermo" means heat

dennis780 writes:

quote:
Entropy is a macroscopic property of a system that is a measure of the microscopic disorder within the system. It is an important part of the second law of thermodynamics. Thermodynamic systems are made up of microscopic objects, e.g. atoms or molecules, which "carry" energy. According to the second law of thermodynamics, the thermodynamic entropy is a measure of the amount of energy which does no work during energy conversions.
Entropy - Wikipedia

"Again, entropy is not the same as order and disorder. The creo sites are lying to you."

So is wikipedia?

"It is not what you claim or want it to be, no matter how many times you claim."

Wikipedia seems to disagree with you.

No. I think you're just misunderstanding Wikipedia.

The article mentions that atoms and molecules "carry" energy. The "microscopic disorder" that it mentions is not disorder of the atoms and molecules themselves. It's disorder of the energy that they carry. The more "spread out" the energy is, the less work it can do.

Consider a cup of coffee sitting on a table. As it cools, you can feel the energy leaving the coffee, heating the cup, heating the air, heating the tabletop. The heat is spreading out, becoming increasingly disordered but there's little change in the disorder of the coffee.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

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	Message 74 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:46 AM		dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 79 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:42 AM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 432 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 89 of 111 (578340)
09-01-2010 1:50 PM

Reply to: Message 79 by dennis780
09-01-2010 2:42 AM

Re: "Thermo" means heat

dennis780 writes:

And if you would have bothered to read any of the source, you would have found that entropy applies to my arguement as well.

As I said, the problem isn't with reading, it's with comprehension. Your source doesn't say quite what you think it says. Whenever you read anything about thermodynamics, you should be thinking in terms of energy, not "things".

dennis780 writes:

The suns rays (discussed earlier as evidence that the earth is not a closed system) are generally harmful, causing harmful effects in humans including dry skin, sunburns, actinic keratosis, and changes in skin collagen.

Since the sun introduces ultraviolet rays, that are harmful (minus plants and other organisms that can harness the energy), entropy should increase over time.

Entropy is a quantity that can be measured and/or calculated. "Harm" is a quality - and a pretty subjective one at that. It can't be easily quantified. That's a clue that "harm" doesn't necessarily imply an increase in entropy.

So you can say that entropy increases over time but you can't really say that the entropy of "things" increases over time.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 79 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:42 AM		dennis780 has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 432 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 100 of 111 (588122)
10-22-2010 10:56 AM

Reply to: Message 96 by dennis780
10-22-2010 4:35 AM

dennis780 writes:

So then would you perform an experiment 10^118 chances of getting the desired outcome?

Do you have any idea how many possible outcomes there are when you add a drop of molecules to a beaker full of molecules? Every experiment has long odds against one possible outcome but the dice are rolled so many times that that outcome will eventually happen.

dennis780 writes:

Yet somehow you still expect me to play the lottery.

Remember that somebody always wins.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
	Message 96 by dennis780, posted 10-22-2010 4:35 AM		dennis780 has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 432 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 110 of 111 (588381)
10-24-2010 5:30 PM

Reply to: Message 106 by dennis780
10-22-2010 9:19 PM

dennis780 writes:

So the odds of chemical evolution are so likely there is no other plausible explanation for the origin of life then?

You have two separate ideas there:

The chances of chemical evolution are so likely that no other explanation is necessary.
There is no other plausible explanation. People have speculated about a creator or designer but they have no explanation of how it's supposed to work

dennis780 writes:

But you just said that 10^118 is not impossible to achieve. So if lottery odds are a minut fraction of that, then the odds of winning the lottery are so good I'd be stupid NOT to play.

Your chances of winning the lottery don't depend on how stupid you are.

The fact that somebody always wins - i.e. the event is possible - scuttles your whole "magic number" argument.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

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	Message 106 by dennis780, posted 10-22-2010 9:19 PM		dennis780 has not replied

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