The mystery of Job.

quote:

---

Originally posted by doctrbill

​

Welcome to our Forum Amlodhi.
Nice to meet another fan of Sumerian culture!

---

Thank you for the warm welcome, doctrbill.Thanks also for the additional work you presented concerning the etymology of the term shaddai.Namaste'Amlodhi

I have a lot of respect for Strong but cannot always go along with his analysis. At best, these old words are somewhat enigmatic. As you may note, those sources which take it to mean 'breast,' in some form or another, make much of the nurturing aspect of the godhead. I was unaware of any authority on the subject when I analysed it for myself based on the limited information available in Young's Analytical Concordance. My preliminary take on it, at that time, was: 'plentiful breast.' I found this interpretation acceptable, in part, due to passages such as, "Thou shalt suck the breast of kings" Isaiah 60:16. There is also, if I recall correctly, the dual nature of El himself: warrior and nurturer. Can you give us a transliteration of the Arabic word?Ever hear of the Grand Tetons? From the French for: 'Big Tits.'db------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

Welcome, Amlodhi and thanks for your contributions. Only one little thing - the myths you cite are not Sumerian but Babylonian. Of course - Babylonian pantheon and mythology evolved from Sumerian, but are significantly different (creation story is different as well as the "family tree" of gods). Therefore Anu, Ea etc. are Babylonian gods, while An, Enki etc. Sumerian.
Recently I was informed by friend that Sumerian god should be called Anu as well, because An is wrong translation. It might be true, but this mistake (if it really is mistake) is quite convenient one, because it enables us distinguish between Sumerian and Babylonian gods.------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.[This message has been edited by Raha, 09-30-2003]

Welcome to the forum Amlodhi. I have a Penguin Publisher's copy and commentary on the Gilgamesh Epic at home, and it's flood story IS very similar to the story in Genesis. The excerpt you provided on Adapa, Ea, & Enki, reminds me of the Adam & Eve story in Genesis. We will have some fasinating info from myself, you, Raha, & Drbill that we may study. Perhaps we can find more connections between some of these seperate gods and discuss our findings.

Incredible!That was my theory also; "God, The One of the mountains", or ElShad. has a femanine aspect of being nurturing, and the many or large breasts may signify mountains!

Thanks for the welcome Raha.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raha

​

Only one little thing - the myths you cite are not Sumerian but Babylonian. Of course - Babylonian pantheon and mythology evolved from Sumerian, but are significantly different. . .

---

There is no question that you are correct in this. The Babylonians greatly revered the Sumerian culture and the Sumerian language was considered to be the language of scholars; much as was Latin to later cultures. Nevertheless, as you say, the Babylonians had few reservations about altering earlier recensions of the Sumerian tales to conform with their own culture and national gods.However, it is likely that we will never know the original content or the actual origins of the tales. The Sumerian version of the flood story (with the protagonist as Ziusudra) is largely incomplete and the original content (absent in the lacunae) must be deduced from the later recensions i.e., the Old Babylonian "Atrahasis" and the later Standard Babylonian,(or Nineveh recension), "Gilgamesh".Nevertheless, you are, as mentioned, certainly correct in pointing out the distinctions.Namaste'Amlodhi

In fact the resemblance of Sumerian/Babylonian myths and biblical stories is astonishing. Except Flood story and story of Adapa, there is also a Sumerian myth about creation of men from clay, the myth about lady of the rib, myth about king Sargon which resembles story of Moses, myth about the island of Dilmun, which is like garden of Eden etc. So according to my opinion, Judaism is at large part based on Sumerian religion. So the question is — is it possible for such a developed polytheistic system to evolve into monotheism spontaneously? I think that IT IS possible, but with very low probability, while getting infected by Atonism appears more probable and logical.------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.

About those Sermons, etc.; I'll have to read carefully thru them to see the "many breasted" translation of ElShad. I am in the process of looking at other materials to try to establish more connections, but from what you have written, the sermons', bible study, etc., the connections appear quite reasonable! In the mean time, the "burning-bush" WAS a kind of STD; You see, Moses just could'nt get over the sight of all those big, beautiful, nurturing mountains(breasts), so he lead his people to the biggest one(Sinai) that just happened to be exploding(with milk&honey& of course the Ten C's). Then Moses went to the "top" and had communion with God(dess)! Then Arron&the priests also had communion with the "burning bush". No one else was allowed to commune with the God(dess) on pain of of a horrible STD related death, but they did anyway! Moses was probably afraid he would offend our modern sensibilities if he wrote the truth of the matter.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-30-2003]

An Egyptian Sun god-Aton Ra may have been the basis for Jewish monotheism. Can we connect the time of the Jews living in Egypt with the time of Aton's worship by the Egyptians? Another interesting connection is the name "Moses" as someone else has already mentioned. "Moses" may be the same as the Egyptian "mese" in the well known name Ramese or Ramses. I don't know at the moment what "mese" means, but Ra, pronounced ray, means SUN. Perhaps you have more info about this.

Well, Moses's name is spelled Mem-Shin-He (M-S/Sh-H - "Moseh" or "Mosheh"):Sounds pretty close to "mese" to me. If you can get a specific pronunciation and meaning, that would be great. According to the bible, the pharaoh's daughter named him Moses because she drew him out of the water (it supposedly sounds similar to a Hebrew term meaning "to draw out"). Rather odd that an Egyptian pharaoh's daughter would use a Hebrew name... ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

quote:

---

Originally posted by doctrbill

​

I have a lot of respect for Strong but cannot always go along with his analysis.

---

I would have to agree with that. There have been times when I have, in particular, questioned his choice of root origins.An additional suggestion has been cited in "The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament", Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner; vol. 2, Brill pub. Although here also, it is admitted that the etymology of the term has not been clarified, they cite the suggestion that "shaddai" may stem from the Akkadian "shadu(m)" or, more properly the adjectival form "shadda'u" meaning; "mountain dwelling". They do note, however, that while the adjectival form includes the postulated doubling of the daleth of "shaddai", that this doubling only appears in the Neo-Assyrian period. Therefore, it would need to be shown that the doubling in "shaddai" is a later grammatical addition.

quote:

---

doctrbill:

​

At best, these old words are somewhat enigmatic. As you may note, those sources which take it to mean 'breast,' in some form or another, make much of the nurturing aspect of the godhead.

---

Please understand that I am not prepared to attempt to argue any fixed position regarding the etymology of the term shaddai. The contents of this post (as well as of my previous one) are simply musings on a subject I find interesting.That said, I can see how the reference in Is. 60:16 links the concept of a nurturing breast to a masculine personage (malakim) within a metaphorical framework. Here, however, the metaphorical imagery is connected to an action (to be performed by the people) by the use of the verb (in the 2nd per. pl. imp. form) "TiNaQi" (you shall suck). It is unclear, to me, whether this direction can be taken in the construction of a proper title. IOW, although it would seem reasonable to extrapolate a metaphorical meaning from an existing proper title, I'm not sure that a proper title would be constructed from a metaphorical foundation.Also, although the Hebrew "shad" does indeed translate as "breast" and implies a sense of nurturing, it is unclear (again, to me), how it would assume the grammatical form of "shaddai". If I understand correctly, the plural of "shad" is "shadim" and the dual form is "shadayim" (with no dagesh forte to indicate a doubling of daleth). In addition, the construct form is also simply "shad" and the syntactical order renders the use of any construct form impossible regardless of the root used.One other possibility would be, as you have suggested, that the suffix denotes a feminine form of Aramaic origin. My only reservation with regard to this suggestion is that the first appearance (in the bible) of "shaddai" is in Gen. 17:1 and I am unsure whether there was much (if any) Aramaic influence at the time this verse was penned.

quote:

---

doctrbill:

​

Can you give us a transliteration of the Arabic word (for breast)?

​

Ever hear of the Grand Tetons? From the French for: 'Big Tits.'

---

. . .oh, yes. I had forgotten about the Grand Tetons.It has been a long time since I read about certain mountains being named "the breast" (due to similar imagery). IIRC, the article was strictly in English and the actual Arabic word was not given. However, although I don't read Arabic, I seem to recall it being said somewhere that the Arabic term for breast is "berk" (but don't take that to the bank).Namaste'Amlodhi

Thank you for the welcome Prozacman.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prozacman

​

The excerpt you provided on Adapa, Ea, & Enki, reminds me of the Adam & Eve story in Genesis.

---

Yes, I've always found it especially interesting that one of the alternate transliterations of "Adapa" is "Adamu"; that sounds so familiar somehow.

quote:

---

Prozacman:

​

Perhaps we can find more connections between some of these seperate gods and discuss our findings.

---

I suspect that we can. Raha has already (since your post) mentioned the creation epic and "Nin-ti" (the "lady of the rib" or possibly {by analogy from "Nin-ka-si"} the "lady {or goddess} who alleviates the pain in the rib").Namaste'Amlodhi

My sentiment as well. I was, early on, under the impression that 'shad' - breast; had been combined with 'dai' plentiful; resulting in shad-dai - plentiful, or bountiful, breast. You're over my head now Amlodhi. I see this as two facets of a culture which had no apparent hang ups about the breast, male or female. It was a breast-feeding culture, as I imagine all ancient cultures were; and there was, evidently, no stigma attached to public awareness of that activity. This relaxed attitude is also apparent in New Testament writings. Witness:

quote:

---

"Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!" Luke 11:27 RSV

---

The Good News Bible clarifies the archaic 'Blessed' with, "How happy ..." {happy tits!}.In such a cultural environment, the 'breast' etymology should not be difficult to imagine. Another telling passage is the following, where 'God' is given for El and 'Almighty' is given for shaddai and 'breast' is given for shad:

quote:

---

... by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb. Genesis 49:25 King James Version

---

The association with nurture is certainly at home in this context I may have this backward. Perhaps the suffix is some Canaanite tongue. All that comes to mind regarding the Aramaic influence are a few things which may or may not lead to an understanding of this.

• The name of Abram's sister/wife Sarai also features this ending.
• The name Yahweh appears in the narrative, even though Yahweh tells Moses that Abraham did not know that name. {The name Sarai was later changed to Sarah: a Mesopotamian suffix? Mesopotamia was, in the Bible, called Aram Naharaim (Aram of two rivers). Perhaps all the names were revised at a later date? The story itself was apparently about 1500 years old when it was committed to writing}
• Genesis was penned circa 700 to 500 BC.
• Aramaic, at some point, became the language of Assyria,
• and Aramaic was the language of native Israeli's in the time of Christ.

Aside from these clues, I have nothing definitive to offer this question.db

I'm working on the pronuciation and meaning of "Moses" now. I'll soon post more than one source to get a more objective clue to Moses name.OK, here's one from the American Heretage Dictionary,pg. 906: "Moses(mozis)long o, short i,.(LLat.-Moses like it's normally pronounced,

​

[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-01-2003]

​

[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-01-2003]

According to my source given in response to your post # 40, Moses, or Moshe, is defined as "child". I was taught, as you said, that Moses means to draw out, or "draw". It is obvious that I will need to find more sources on the name "Moses". What do you think of the "child" definition? There is a particular Bible dictionary that I stupidly didn't get the name of! It is much more extensive in it's treatment of Moses and his name. I will provide the reference soon, but here's a quote: "Thus the child was raised by his own mother and the returned to Pharaoh's daughter who adopted him and named him Moses(Hebrew; Mosheh) which the Bible explains as meaning "Because I drew[from the root masha, 'to draw'] him out of the water".(Exod.2.10). (But the name may actually be an Egyptian one meaning "is born"; cf. the last component of Egyptian names like Thutmose, Ahmose, etc.) I'll have to keep digging! Here we are; that particular Bible dictionary is the Harper-Collis Bible Dictionary, Revised Ed.,Paul J. Acklemeier,General Editor. See pg. 704.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-01-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-02-2003]