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Author | Topic: Textual Discrepancies & How They Could Impact Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2359 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Interesting suggestion; I haven't really thought about this in connection with the Trinity. I'm initially skeptical; as we've already discussed, the Bible clearly says that God is one, and that three separate persons are all God. How does one reconcile this without something similar to the Trinity? Maybe with some sort of more "modalistic" understanding, similar to the Eastern churches (e.g. Nestorian)? But I agree that there have been many instances of Platonic philosophy mixing with (and contaminating) Christian theology. We see this in the Medieval explanation of transubstantiation, for example. Also in the Aristotelian geocentrism which plagued Galileo; this was based more on Platonic idealism than on biblical interpretation. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Maximus Junior Member (Idle past 5125 days) Posts: 1 Joined: |
How does one reconcile this without something similar to the Trinity? Maybe with some sort of more "modalistic" understanding, similar to the Eastern churches (e.g. Nestorian)? St. Patrick used the shamrock to explain how the trinity worked, each leaf separate, but connected at a single point working together.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3684 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Some OT authors tell us that YHWH is their god and there is only one YHWH. IOW, they worship only one god named YHWH. Do the NT authors really tell us that YHWH, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all one and the same god, as opposed to, three gods on the same team? To examine this we need to look at what each author is saying and not conflate sentences from various authors. Theos is just a generic term and not the name of a specific god. The word translated as "lord" just means master. So which author tells us that the three are actually the same god without the Johannine Comma? The author of John does carry the theme that Jesus was completely divine or a god, but does he present Jesus and YHWH as one god or two? John is also the latest gospel written (90-120CE).
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, "I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." I'm using YHWH instead of the generic because not everyone capitalizes to differentiate the difference. Does the author of John ever say that Jesus is YHWH or just that Jesus is also a god? Although we may run into more discrepancies in discussing the Trinity issue, this path may go beyond the purpose of this topic. If you want to get into a deeper discussion concerning the trinity a new thread is probably a better option and less restricted than this topic. Edited by purpledawn, : Changed first line The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3684 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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Welcome Maximus,
Glad you decided to add to our diversity. EvC has a wide variety of forums for your debating pleasure. As members, we are guests on this board and as guests we are asked to put forth our best behavior. Please read the Forum Guidelines carefully and understand the wishes of our host. This thread concerns discrepancies in the Bible that have or could impact Christianity.
quote:A corporation is still composed of people. That doesn't make the corporation a person. There can be three gods working together, but that doesn't make them one god. If one worships two or all three, then one is worshiping three gods, not just one god. If one believes that only one god exists, then the other two cannot be considered gods. That's why the Doctrine of the Trinity was formulated, to combat the accusations of polytheism. The Johannine Comma was the one verse that supported the idea of one god in three persons, but as noted earlier, it wasn't in the earlier Greek manuscripts. Edited by purpledawn, : Added Welcome
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2168 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
I agree that the term trinity is just a term. It could also refer to three gods. The word isn't the issue. It's the doctrine. The Doctrine of the Trinity was designed to counter claims of polytheism. When what I would call "trinitarian" concepts are written about in the New Testament, the emphasis is on experience and enjoyment. I think the Trinity becomes a problem to the natural mind when someone is overly occupied with doctrine rather than experiencing Christ - experincing God through Christ. E. W. Bullinger, author of The Companion Bible wrote:
"We do not, therefore, now to propose to discuss doctrines, or use any non-scriptural expressions; not even such words as "Trinity" or "Unity," or any ecclesiastical terminology. These are the things which divide the members of the One Body, instead of uniting them. These introduce the seeds of strife and contention. These have been the causes of contraversies and martyrdoms. But, if we confide ourselves to the Word of God, and that alone, both writer and reader may, and will, all learn together what God has revealed concerning Himself. We shall not seek to draw conclusions, or to discuss or revise any creeds. We shall give only the evidence of Scripture in the words of Scripture; and use only Scripture terminology. What we have to do in this matter is not to teach, but to learn; not to consider doctrines, but facts; and not to resort to reasoning, but to revelation. It is not a question of our understanding what God may mean, but of believing what He has said." I think the usefulness of this man's quote is to emphasize that when the Bible speaks about "trinitarian" concepts, it is more in the realm of standing by faith on promises of God for the experience and enjoyment of God. It is not usually in creedal statements for men to have doctrines for doctrine's sake. Quoting one source from you:
"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. ... " If each is a god, then there are three gods. The idea of one substance was pulled from Plato not the early writers of the New Testament. You could reason that way. And someone eager to defend against heresy may be tempted to utilize Plato to counter you. Both of these things occured and still do. However, if we simply stand upon what the Bible has said without placing formal creeds above the Word of God - it is clear that there is only one God and not three. So while I am in the enjoyment of the indwelling Holy Spirit which makes Jesus Christ real to me, I do not suspend that enjoyment in order to figure out why "One God and Father" has to be wrong. While I am empowered in the grace of Christ in my daily living, I do not allow myself to be destracted from that experience by reasoning that "There is one God" has to be wrong, because there are three gods. My focus is experience and stranding upon what is written. It is far better to experience God and say "Amen" to whatever the Bible says. We should not feel that it is our duty to logically reconcile all paradoxes BEFORE we can enjoy God Himself in His mysterious nature.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And who is able to enumerate all the evils and injurious changes which arose from this new philosophy - from this attempt to reconcile true and false religions with each other?" I'm sorry these bad things occured. I'll try not to be involved myself. But as the poor behavior of the Hebrews did not mean Yahweh does not exist or lead Israel out of Egypt, neither does the bad behavior of some in the Christian Church mean - "No Trinity folks!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is a shame you don't address my arguments. The quote above is from Mosheim, not me. I realized that it was not your quote. What's the problem ?This is the whole quote:
Mosheim writes: "And finally it alienated the minds of many, in the following centuries, from Christianity itself, and produced a heterogeneous species of religion, consisting of Christian and Platonic principles combined. And who is able to enumerate all the evils and injurious changes which arose from this new philosophy - from this attempt to reconcile true and false religions with each other?" Directly addressing this quote, it has much truth to it. And Jesus said that the kingdom of the heavens was as if a woman mixed leaven with three measures of meal until the whole became leavened. Christianity has been MIXED with practically EVERYTHING under the sun. This does not argue for the untruthfulness of the Gospels. This argues for the need for some of us to be overcomers. That is to overcome the surrounding degradation. In the prophetic letters to the seven churches in Revelation two and three, Jesus calls for some to hear what the Spirit says to the churches and to overcome the problems, stumbling blocks, obstacles, issues confronting each church. To the church in Pergamos, Jesus said that they existed where Satan's throne was:
"And to the messenger of the church in Pergamos write: These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword. I know wher you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name and have not denied My faith, even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." (Rev. 2:13) Where Satan's throne is mean the world. This church then was pretty much swallowed up in the world. The worldly philosophies infitrated the church. And the name Antipas means "against all". This may indicate the the faithful servant of Jesus, Antipas, was against everything and everyone who was seeking to corrupt the church with their worldly philophies. For this Antipas was martyred. So we have in this symbolism the Christian church filled with things of the world and not of heaven. Yet to this church there is the charge for His disciples to overcome the surrounding degradation:
"Repent therefore; but if not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war with them with the sword of My mouth. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will of the hidden manna, and to him I will gove a white stone, and upon the stone a new name wrotten, which no one knows except him who receives it." (Rev. 2:16,17) I would love to expound on this passage. However, my immediate point here is that Jesus Christ calls for some in the midst of the polluted church to be overcomers. They are expected to rise up to the level of a normal victorious Christian in Christ. In the other six letters the principle is the same. There is a call for those who have an ear to hear the speaking Spirit. And there is a promise of reward to those who overcome. They are not all told to overcome the same thing. They are all told to overcome what obstacles are confronting the church. One other little important thing before I go back to Moshiem's complaint. To overcome in these epistles does not mean to be extraordinary. It is not to rise above the standard of a normal Christian. It is simply to rise TO the normal standard. The disciples of Jesus are both equiped and expected to overcome through the grace of the indwelling Son of God. Throughout the ages, the Christ within is greater then the Devil in the world. To overcome is to be normal in the eyes of the Master. So, Mr. Moshiem has a good point. Christianity has been leavened with all kinds of worldly philosophies. The call from Christ is to overcome these attacks of Satan through His prevailing grace. And had there not been overcomers down through the centries the Christian Church should have been diluted and swallowd up into the world ages ago. Now I would like to continue writing but I have a tiny foster child asking for breakfast. I have to stop here. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 2168 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Concerning some paradoxes of the nature of God then.
As a young Christian I had some questions about the Holy Spirit. When did the Holy Spirit come? Was it in John 20 or was it in Acts chapter 2? I reasoned. I tried to figure it out. I tried to reconcil contradictions and paradoxes. When did the disciples first get the Holy Spirit ? Why did the Bible leave us with such a dilemma to reason out ? Then the merciful day came when I read the passage again "Receive the Holy Spirit" in John chapter 20. Something said to my heart "You foolish man. The Bible says - Receive the Holy Spirit. It did not say Figure out the Holy Spirit. It said RECEIVE the Holy Spirit. " From that day, I stopped being distracted from the main point of the word of God - to RECEIVE this Holy Spirit. That is experience, enjoy and participate in the Holy Spirit. We can be destracted from experiencing God by trying to figure Him our completely before we "Taste and see that the Lord is good". Two men are on a desert island. There is an basket of apples there. But there is also a six volume set of chemistry books. The one man saves himself from starvation by eating the apples. The other man refuses to take a bite. First he must plunge his whole intellect into those chemistry books and figure out why the apple should be eaten and what it will do for his stomach. This is not a joke. This is what happens to some when confronted with the Triune God - with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus said "Comes unto me and drink". But sadly they are obsessed with "Don't come unto me but rather figure out". How about some coming and saying "Lord Jesus, I forget about trinity. I forget about skinity. Lord Jesus I want to drink YOU into my heart." The person who opens her heart to receive into the innermost being the available Jesus Christ, will soon have no problem with seeing that in touching Jesus, God has been touched. In subjective experience and in enjoyment they can detect NO DIFFERENCE in God, Father, and Holy Spirit. It is as though EACH lives within the OTHER. Human language is limited. We may use terms like hypostasis, Unity, Trinity, coinherance, Persons .... etc. These are all limited expressions of human language. Why not just believe what the Bible has said with a "Amen" of faith eager to experience and to enjoy - "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) "Unto us a child is born ... His name shall be called Mighty God" (Isa. 9:6) "Unto us a son is given ... His name shall be called Eternal Father" (Isa. 9:6) " ... he who confesses the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:23) The word of God transcends any creeds. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 639 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
Why reconcile it at all? What's the good of reconciling the Bible with itself if the reconciliation causes schisms between Bible believers? Why not just treat two different viewpoints as two different viewpoints? ... as we've already discussed, the Bible clearly says that God is one, and that three separate persons are all God. How does one reconcile this without something similar to the Trinity? "It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3684 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Since the Bible is a compilation, there are many authors. While it may be expressed by one or two authors that one or all of the persons in the trinity are God, it isn't necessarily expressed by all the authors. This is why we find these discrepancies between authors and why scribe made changes to make the gospel seem cohesive depending on the argument they were combating. The link I provided in the OP provides a good example. Doctrine of the Trinity 1. One God in Three Persons isn't even stated clearly stated in the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) when one thinks about it.
For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. The Word and the Holy Spirit, IMO, are personifications of logic and spiritual nature. If that's true, then yes they would all be one, just as we are. When they replace the word with Jesus and considered the Holy Spirit an actual person or separate being, then we see what the rest of the authors say. 2. God the Father is God and Lord Himself - I don't think this is difficult to find agreement with in any of the authors that the Father spoken of is God who is master. Whether all authors considered God the Father to be YHWH is probably beyond this discussion. 3. Jesus Christ is God and Lord Himself - This is the one that may not be so clear across the authors of the New Testament. Support for this belief comes from the Gospel of John. We don't see it in the Synoptics. It's even a little questionable if Paul supports the idea of Jesus being YHWH as opposed to a god. 4. The Holy Spirit is God and Lord Himself - This belief has even less support. We don't see anything from any of the Gospels. I'm only going by the verses presented by the link I provided, but you can see that by saying the Bible clearly says that God is one, and that three separate persons are all God makes it sound as if the authors were all in agreement when really only one author seems to strongly present Jesus as a deity. Whether the author presents Jesus as also being YHWH takes more digging. The later writings of the New Testament were presenting what the religion and beliefs had become, not necessarily what Jesus taught. So for those who wish to see what the authors most likely said as individuals, it is good that these discrepancies have been found and mostly corrected in the more modern Bibles. It is also fascinating to try and understand the religious and political climates that inspired the authors to write what they did and the scribes to add or delete what they did. More knowledge is not bad. One believes what they wish because of or in spite of what they know or think they know.
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Phat Member Posts: 18591 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
jaywill writes: But this brings up more questions. Something said to my heart "You foolish man. The Bible says - Receive the Holy Spirit. It did not say Figure out the Holy Spirit. It said RECEIVE the Holy Spirit. " From that day, I stopped being distracted from the main point of the word of God - to RECEIVE this Holy Spirit. 1) Is it really meant for some of us to have this as our final answer and believe that our main task in life is to get everyone else to agree with us and see it as we do? IF God..through Jesus By the Holy Spirit is the answer, are there to be no further questions?
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2359 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Yes, "master" is the basic meaning of the Greek kurios (lord). But this is also the word used to translate "YHWH" in the Septuagint. So if "Lord" appears in the NT in the context of an OT phrase or quotation, it generally has the implication of "YHWH," not just "master." quote: I believe we see a number of NT authors using "Lord" in the sense of the OT "YHWH", and equating Jesus with YHWH. Here are a few examples:
NET Bible writes:
John 20:28 Thomas replied to him, My Lord and my God! Acts 2:25 For David says about him,‘I saw the Lord always in front of me, for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken. Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know beyond a doubt that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ. Rom. 10:9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3684 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I agree if the OT uses the word YHWH. quote:We tend to assume that, but aside from Paul the writers of the New Testament manuscripts were Gentiles, not Jews. As I've said before, this may need a thread of its own if you really want to get into this discussion. We're getting away from the discrepancies. I don't feel that John 20:28 is using the word lord to replace YHWH. If he is, he's being redundant. He's saying my master and my god. I don't see that Thomas is saying that Jesus is YHWH. In Acts 2:25, when we look at Psalm 16, a song and the source of the quote, we see that the song is referring to YHWH, not Jesus.
I have set the LORD (YHWH) always before me because he is at my right hand I shall not be moved For Acts 2:34, the quote is from Psalm 110. The second use of the word lord is referring to David not someone else according to some scholars. The song writer isn't saying that Jesus is YHWH. The NT writer is using the song to show that Jesus sits at the right hand of YHWH. The song doesn't really support that position. This also means that the conclusion in acts 2:36 isn't saying that Jesus is YHWH and the annointed. More likely it is a reference to being king/master and the annointed one. IOW, a king and a priest. Romans 10:9 doesn't make sense if we assume that the word lord is referring to YHWH. It would then be saying confess that Jesus is YHWH and believe that YHWH raised YHWH from the dead. I don't think Paul really had that visual in mind. As I've said before, if you really want to get into this type of discussion concerning the trinity, we need a new thread that allows more freedom. The added Johannine Comma is the only verse that really supports the belief that had developed to combat polytheism. It takes some squinting to see a single god as three persons. We can see more than one god.
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saab93f Member (Idle past 1621 days) Posts: 265 From: Finland Joined: |
Ive been reading texts by a Finnish theologian Ilkka Pyysiinen. One of the things he writes about is the "Empty tomb".
quote: quote: Deletion notice | Scribd There are just so many discrepancies that baffle the mind of an unbeliever very much. To overcome those one has to perform such mental gymnastics that are...unbelievable
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Jon Inactive Member |
There are just so many discrepancies that baffle the mind of an unbeliever very much. To overcome those one has to perform such mental gymnastics that are...unbelievable There are indeed discrepancies, but they have nothing to do with the "lack of a cult of veneration". It would perhaps be better to call the issue of this cult (or its lack) an historical difficulty rather than a textual discrepancy.Love your enemies!
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3684 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
The discrepancies we are looking at in this thread are between manuscripts. Words/sentences that were added or taken away from the text over time. Message 1
Were there such discrepancies in the texts concerning the tomb?
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saab93f Member (Idle past 1621 days) Posts: 265 From: Finland Joined: |
quote: In 1 Cor 15:3—8, Paul also claims that Jesus had appeared to Peter,and then to the twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living . . . After appearing to James and the apostles, the Lord finally appeared to Paul himself. This list is not without problems; in some manuscripts, the number of twelve has actually been corrected to11. Still more problematic is the claim about the 500 brothers about whom the gospels know nothing (Price 2005; cf. Barrett 1994: 341—42;Ldemann 1994: 103—6; Luke 24:34; Acts 1:15). Would those be that kind of discrepancies? All 12 Apostles witnessed the resurrected Jesus but then someone "remembered" that Judas had already died so the number was dropped to 11.
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