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Author Topic:   I Don't Understand the Israel/Palestinian Problem
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 46 of 57 (54580)
09-09-2003 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Silent H
09-04-2003 6:55 PM


September 9--- another Israeli incursion, 3 Palestinians were killed including an 11 year old boy
But there is much more important, by which I mean disturbing, news than that.
Abbas quit and in quitting vocally pinned the blame on Israel and the US for undermining him in gaining political power. This was an obvious necessity for him to succeed. He had to become more important than Arafat politically, if he was going to survive as a negotiating partner for the Palestinians (since Sharon refuses to negotiate with Arafat).
Yet the US and Israeli administrations are spinning this as Arafat's fault. Israel still building its case that Arafat must be removed.
Arafat deftly moved to put another man in place... Korei. This guy is an unquestionable moderate and has up until this point been a friend to the US and Israel. He helped broker the 1993 Oslo accords and so his credentials are as unblemished by terrorism and impeccable as a diplomat for peace as they come.
Yet Israel has already come out swinging on Korei. Simply because Arafat picked him, and he had worked with Arafat on the Oslo accords (which were unquestionably moderate successes at peace until a Sharon devotee target assassinated the Israeli PM), Israel cannot negotiate peace with him.
Is there any question then, who is trying to pursue peace and who is not? A person pursuing peace does not say no matter a person's impeccable credentials and motives I am not going to pursue peace with him, because he's friends with this guy I don't like. That is putting the lives of all parties involved at risk for reasons small children are scolded for using.
Korei has not accepted the position yet anyway. He has said he is unwilling to work under an Israelu mandate.
Interestingly enough a plan very much along the lines I outlined in an earlier post has been advanced by Korei.
reuters writes:
Korei called for a cease-fire agreement between the Palestinian Authority and Israel, rather than another unilateral truce by militants to ensure both sides keep their powder dry.
He said Palestinian leaders were committed to co-existence with Israel under the "road map" peace plan outlining steps to end nearly three years of violence and create a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip by 2005.
"But under these circumstances on the ground at the moment, and the way the Israelis are dealing with the elected president of the Palestinian people, I cannot succeed," said Korei, the Palestinian parliamentary speaker and a veteran moderate.
"I want the Israelis to work for peace, not by the logic of power and force. No, (rather) by the logic of wisdom and co-existence.
"If this is available, I can go for peace. Because, if I can have the support of my people because there are some changes on the ground, if I can have the support of President Arafat who is (now) under siege, if I have the guaranteed support of the (international peacemaking) Quartet, then things will move."
It will be very interesting to see how Israel responds to this logical plan for peace, especially as I think that is one of the only chances for peace to succeed. It places power in the hands of moderates on both sides, to make the gains in peace, and so making them future partners against the radicals who stand against them.
On top of being logical it seems pretty obvious as well, since it is saying the governments must act as the negotiating partners, and not cede power to radicals.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Silent H, posted 09-04-2003 6:55 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 47 of 57 (55376)
09-14-2003 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Silent H
09-04-2003 6:55 PM


Just for the continuing record...
There were two more suicide bombings, most likely by Hamas. The first hit a "military target" which were soldiers outside their base. The second was a civilian target at a cafe (I think it was a cafe).
As per usual more dead and no advancement of the peace process.
Qureia and Arafat denounced the attacks and pushed for continued peace talks despite the violence of radical groups.
Sharon and his government officials, in response to these attacks, have called for the elimination of Arafat. Either exile or death.
This resulted in masses of Palestinians and even some westerners to swarm to Arafat and announcing they will protect him with their lives.
It also resulted in Qureia abandoning efforts to even form a government.
It also resulted in worldwide condemnation of Israel's plans.
In the face of all these obvious obstacles to peace, springing directly from their plan, Sharon and co say exiling or killing Arafat is the only way peace can be made. One official saying that killing is the primary method with exile as a "contingency plan".
Saeb Erakat, a moderate Palestinian negotiator said that if this happens the likely result will be a massive rush to extremism by the Palestinian population... imagine for instance what Americans would be like if someone popped off our President... and that they would likely start shooting moderate leaders.
Sharon and co say that there may be rioting for a while but Israel will be able to handle it and eventually things will calm down and peace negotiations can begin.
I am uncertain how anyone can spin Sharon and his administration's actions as anything less than "provocative", with an intent to sideline moderate leaders, stalling any hope of a peace process, and pushing moderate Palestinians firmly into the extremist camp. As it is it their saber-rattling has already achieved the first two purposes.
And frankly, it looks to me like this all had the more specific purpose of cutting out Qureia, since his government most likely would have unified security forces and his suggested plan of diplomacy was pretty much beyond reproach. In short, Arafat brilliantly undercut Sharon's initial plan to destroy Abbas, by bringing in Qureia. Sharon quickly moved to drown talks of peace in visions of angry Palestinians, to frighten Israelis. Not to mention creating angry Palestinians for the sake of undercutting moderate attempts at dialogue.
If it looks like anything else to someone else, I'd love to hear your theory.
------------------
holmes
[This message has been edited by holmes, 09-14-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Silent H, posted 09-04-2003 6:55 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 48 of 57 (55377)
09-14-2003 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Agent Uranium [GPC]
09-05-2003 10:14 PM


Agent U quoting Reuters writes:
Israeli soldiers blow up a Palestinian building in which a Palestinian gunman was hiding during a gunbattle with Israeli troops in Nablus September 5, 2003. The destruction of the building left 28 families homeless.
More recently, news has emerged from that incident that Israeli forces once again used innocent Palestinians as human shields while sweeping through the building (so they could plant charges or try to shoot things out with the guy they were looking for was not mentioned). Thankfully no shield was killed, but the practice is regarded one of the signs of a terrorist organization. This would NOT be the first time the Israeli army has used this tactic since Sharon took over.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 09-05-2003 10:14 PM Agent Uranium [GPC] has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 49 of 57 (57785)
09-25-2003 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Silent H
09-04-2003 6:55 PM


Okay so the carnage continues, what can possibly be news in that?
Well Israeli airforce pilots are starting to come out against bombing residential areas, in defiance of Ariel Sharon's orders. This is exactly what happened the last time Sharon was in power and before he was tossed out for war crimes. And this time the pilot protests are in writing and sent to the government.
One of Sharon's "lieutenants" said that these pilots may be punished. They may punish pilots for refusing to bomb residential areas. Mmmmmmhmmmmm.
And more important to a post by Percipient earlier in this thread. The war crimes case against Sharon has at this point pretty much been dropped.
Was it do to insufficient evidence? Not at all. It was purely political maneuvering.
Sharon tried to have it smashed for years but failed consistently. Then he dropped out of proceedings when he knew he would not win the case in the courtroom. That's when his full court press against the legal system itself began.
His first save was to get the Belgian law changed so that sitting heads of states cannot be tried for war crimes. Being a head of state he was immune which is why it appeared the case had failed. It had not. It was only in postponement.
Then Sharon had the US put pressure on the Belgian lawmakers to remove the law's protection against anyone but Belgians or those with belgian citizenship. That just went through, for all intents and purposes ending the international war crimes court. It is now a belgian war crimes court. So now he is free from prosecution.
What a said day for human rights.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Silent H, posted 09-04-2003 6:55 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Rei, posted 09-25-2003 3:19 PM Silent H has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 50 of 57 (57801)
09-25-2003 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Silent H
09-25-2003 2:01 PM


Did you hear the latest news? I assume you're familiar with how a number of cities have literally been turned into prisons, by building huge walls around them, complete with massive sniper towers that loom over all of the buildings and give Israeli troops clear shots into people's homes and along most streets. And now they're encompassing the entire west bank, minus the parts that they're annexing for even more settlements (including a good portion of all of the farmland) with a similar wall. Well, check this out:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/343513.html
They're now going to be doing their killing by remote controlled machine guns. Given the number of civilians (especially children) already killed by snipers using their *own eyes*, this is horribly disturbing.
Of course, most people are unfamiliar with the number of Palestinian civilians killed - and especially wounded in the conflict. That the number of Palestinians killed is about 2 1/2 times the number of Israelis killed, and that the Israeli army has admitted that less than half of the Palestinians they killed were involved in any sort of resistance movement. And that the proportion of Palestinians children killed is notably higher than the proportion of Israeli children killed (in addition to the overall higher numbers). And that Nablus was kept in lockdown (I.e., you can only leave your house for a few hours per week, children can't go to school, you can't go to the hospital even for giving birth, etc) for over 100 contiguous days at one point this year.... or that Hamas had offered a cease fire, and less than 24 hours later, Israel bombed an apartment block... or are aware of the number of homes bulldozed, the acres of trees bulldozed, the shelling of the Rafah water supply (where they already divert the majority of the water to the illegal settlements which have tiny populations by comparison).... and haven't seen the pictures of the trashing of various ministries (such as the education and health ministries, including things like defecation in the buildings and graffiti over childrens' drawings), the trashing of radio stations... you know, I should stop, otherwise I'll go on all day.
It's sad how little most people know about the conflict. Most people aren't even familiar with what Barak's "Generous offer" entailed.
When little children grow up where among their first words is usually 'jaish', and know how to deal with tear gas in the eyes by age 6 (answer: onions), where the majority of adult males (fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers) have been arrested at one point or another in a sweep... there's something horribly wrong. And people wonder how this leads to violence...
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 09-25-2003 2:01 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Silent H, posted 09-25-2003 11:59 PM Rei has not replied
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 09-26-2003 9:39 AM Rei has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 51 of 57 (57900)
09-25-2003 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Rei
09-25-2003 3:19 PM


I had not yet heard about the remote controlled machine guns. f'ing hell.
Did you hear Israel is hiring Russian snipers from Chechnya to mount in those sniper nests around Palestinian towns?
ps- We seem to have a lot of common interests. I just saw you are a big photoshop artist. As am I. Though I think pulling that ninja homosexual pic out so quickly was impressive, much faster than I work! With all of your excellent knowledge, and your superior comedic/artistic ability, I may not need to post anymore... just watch your posts.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Rei, posted 09-25-2003 3:19 PM Rei has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 52 of 57 (57978)
09-26-2003 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Rei
09-25-2003 3:19 PM


Of course, most people are unfamiliar with the number of Palestinian civilians killed - and especially wounded in the conflict. That the number of Palestinians killed is about 2 1/2 times the number of Israelis killed, and that the Israeli army has admitted that less than half of the Palestinians they killed were involved in any sort of resistance movement.
Not that I don't believe you - far from it - but I was wondering if you could cite a source for this. This would be a handy stat to bust out on some folks I know, but they'll certainly ask me for a cite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Rei, posted 09-25-2003 3:19 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Rei, posted 09-26-2003 1:47 PM crashfrog has not replied
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 53 of 57 (58016)
09-26-2003 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
09-26-2003 9:39 AM


Certainly, Crash. I always back up my statements.
I'm having trouble findin a current count of Israelis killed and wounded, but last I checked it was about 850 killed and 4,400 wounded.
For Palestinian deaths, we turn to the Red Crescent: 2,471 deaths and 23,582 wounded.
File Not Found
The Palestinian govt. puts the number of wounded notably higher, at 43,468:
Forbidden
I was kind in saying "less than half" (I didn't have the exact number on me at the time) - the actual number is 23%:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=336075
(Haaretz is a major Israeli newspaper).
Would you also like the estimates of damage done to the economies and infrastructure of the two countries?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 09-26-2003 9:39 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 54 of 57 (58021)
09-26-2003 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
09-26-2003 9:39 AM


crashfrog writes:
Not that I don't believe you - far from it - but I was wondering if you could cite a source for this.
The problem with citations is that the number keeps changing. Usually you just have to wait till the next round of violence then check CNN or Reuters for the latest casualty figures.
But you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to let a biased source (against my position) do some arguing against what I am saying. It is about a year old but the stats are about the same ratio wise (2 to1).
In this article the Israeli apologists attempt to explain away the casualty figures which always make Israel look bad...
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439
Now just remember this is the BEST case Israel can make to spin the difference (which will be what any doubters will start doing once they see the ratio of deaths).
First of all they still could not change the higher numbers of innocent Palestinians killed, even by skewing the definitions. It is about 1.2 to 1 using their definitions.
So they then try to skew it some more, let's look at percentages! The percentage of innocents killed versus "combatants" is much higher for Israelis (ie Palestinians kill less combatants than noncombatants). So see, despite the fact that many more Palestinians are dead, its just because Israel is killing so many bad guys, the Palestinians kill many more innocents.
That might be an interesting figure except for one thing: the definitions are skewed to favor the Israelis!
Look at those definitions. While first giving a caveat to make Palestinians sound like liars, they then bring in categories that are ridiculous. The best one was uniformed noncombatant. That means all soldiers attacked directly by a terrorist, were no conflict was started by Israel, gets counted as "innocents".
For example, a few weeks back a Hamas member attacked a bus station filled with soldiers. That was actually an attack on a bunch of soldiers. But by the definitions supplied they all become innocents.
HOWEVER, Israel lobbing missiles into a house of an extremist not doing anything at all, counts as a combatant killed (as well as those around him who are "most likely" combatants).
What's more aggregious is in the study it goes on to blame the victims by using stats of elderly and women killed to "prove" that it those innocents who were killed weren't innocent at all. Why? Because they were young men! Because there is a higher percentage of young men killed, we can naturally conclude that they were troublemakers willing to hang around situations they shouldn't be.
If anyone remembers the horrific scene of a father and young son slowly shot dead by Israelis, or the bombing of boys on their way home from school, these rationalizations just seem pathetic.
There probably are more boys willing to engage Israeli troops head on, or be around to watch conflicts when they are best at home. But that is neither an excuse for the mass numbers of young boys killed, nor a suggestion that Israel is less culpable of shedding innocent blood.
It is interesting that they don't necessarily take into consideration that men and women mix differently in the two cultures and that if men are targeted, most likely more men would be around than women. In Israel there is much more mixing of genders, not to mention there are women soldiers.
What this report does not go into is the methods employed, and other things like mass roundups of innocents (held in prison for indeterminate periods), innocents wounded, and the disenfranchisement of Palestinians on a day to day level.
So the best they have... and this is still with the admission that ~2.5 times as many Palestinians wind up dead... is that the numbers of innocents killed is just a little bit more (if every Palestinian extremist is a combatant and every Israeli soldier is innocent), and anyway the innocent ones are guilty of just hanging around to watch.
Actually those definitions... I just can't get over them. They see some sort of difference between a suicide bomber and a "targeted assassination"?
I guess the Israeli army brings with it some force of purity where their surprise violent engagements can confer the status of combatant on all those they slaughter.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 09-26-2003 9:39 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 57 (58895)
09-30-2003 11:45 PM


I've just finished running through the entire thread, the first two pages word for word and skimming through the rest, focusing in on things of special interest.
My answer to Percy's original post and question is that there's an ongoing struggle between the descendents of Abraham's son, Isaac and his half brother, Ishmael as prophesied over and over beginning with Abraham and repeated to Isaac and Jacob, as well as by later prophets. The war/struggle/conflict has raged throughout Mideastern history, flaring up whenever Israel is in the land and has been prophesied for these latter days after Israel again re-entered the land. The central most bone of contention is the city of Jerusalem and particularly the Temple Mount. Islam has taken up the banner for the descendents of Ishmael, and of course Judiasm keeps the focus on the Holy City and the Temple Mount and this keeps Israel intent on holding the city as their capital and location of their central government. Fundamental Christianity identifies with Israel based on the fundamentals of Biblical history and prophecy that Messiah Jesus will come to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount to become Messiah king to both Christians and Jews who then will receive him.
I don't expect this explanation to wash with most here, but this is the Christofundie answer to your question, Percy as to "why," in this otherwise senseless struggle. Of course, it doesn't take too much smarts to understand why Israelies must needs keep the upper hand in the struggle as it rages today. They are surrounded by nations, numbers and armies about 20 to one, all pretty much hostile and willing for their demise. It's either a step ahead all the time for them or death and destruction. When offered all his demands on a platter by Barak, Arafat said something like "Go to Hell." He'd say the same thing if they were seriously offered today, regardless of his fissad. Israel is not on any school maps in Palestinian schools and never will be. It's all or none. This is a war to the death. Casualties will continue to mount. According to the prophecies, it appears a pseudo truce may eventually reached, but will be fairly short lived, about three and a half years as most see it. Then all hell breaks out again and Armaggedon ends it all in an horrific bloodbath. It's Allah, Mohammed and the Koran vs Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible, all the way and the focus will continue all the way in the same Middle Eastern part of the world, with the Temple mount remaining the ultimate bone of contention.

Replies to this message:
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 56 of 57 (58902)
10-01-2003 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
09-30-2003 11:45 PM


quote:
Of course, it doesn't take too much smarts to understand why Israelies must needs keep the upper hand in the struggle as it rages today. They are surrounded by nations, numbers and armies about 20 to one, all pretty much hostile and willing for their demise
Yeah, and it's not like they have one of the strongest armies on the planet and are surrounded by some of the most outdated armies on the planet, have 100-400 nuclear weapons versus zero, have a first-world economy....
quote:
It's either a step ahead all the time for them or death and destruction.
The only people at risk of being utterly destroyed over there are the Palestinians. Sharon has personally advocated what is known as the "final solution" - the ethnic cleansing of the territories by forcing everyone into Jordan. The Palestinians have already been shoved into such a small area that the Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated locations on Earth. They're forbidden to bear arms, and are up against one of the world's most powerful militaries.
You do the math about who is likely to be destroyed.
quote:
When offered all his demands on a platter by Barak, Arafat said something like "Go to Hell."
Ah, "Barak's Generous Offer" rears its ugly head again. Do you have any clue what was in "Barak's Generous Offer"? As of 1967, many of Palestine's people (which now number about 16 million) had been driven out of the country, off of their land and our of their homes, to live as refugees. The remaining population had been driven into 22% of the country. After 1967, from the remaining 22%, Israel began colonizing with settlements. While Gaza Strip is essentially one giant prison refugee camp, some of the West Bank remained slightly in tact. The settlements and now the wall will soon have eroded almost all of the remaining farmland. The settlements are a miniscule portion of the West Bank's population, but take half its water.
Barak's offer first took 10% of the West Bank, and outright hands it to the settlers. This 10% snakes across the entire country, segmenting it. However, not segmented enough. Then, there's the 10% "temporary control" line which, with no time limits and no reason to ever give it back (also containing settlements), might as well be included in the first 10%. It further segments the country into little pieces that are virtually impossible to travel between. Not enough, however. Barak's offer then places settler roads and checkpoints, complete with guard towers and buffer zones, which take away whatever hope of traveling between parts of the country they might have had left. In exchange, Barak offered them a chunk of barren desert which Israel had previously used as a nuclear waste dump.
Do I even need to go into the restrictions that Israel also placed on the Palestinians?
quote:
Israel is not on any school maps in Palestinian schools and never will be
Funny you should mention Palestinian schools. Don't worry, the kids won't see the maps very much, because Israel caused the near complete closure of schools during much of the Intifada. They teargassed several schools which attempted to open. Nablus was kept in lockdown for over 100 days contiguously at one point.
BTW, are you aware of the number of Palestinian Christians there are? You should talk to some of the people from the many Palestinian Christian churches in the occupied territories, and ask them what *they* think of what is going on. Want me to connect you with one? You could then ask them yourself how the Israeli army treats them and their churches.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2003 11:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 57 of 57 (58912)
10-01-2003 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
09-30-2003 11:45 PM


buzsaw writes:
It's Allah, Mohammed and the Koran vs Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible, all the way and the focus will continue all the way in the same Middle Eastern part of the world, with the Temple mount remaining the ultimate bone of contention.
This is why the major problem in the world today is not islamic fundamentalism, it is ALL monotheistic religious extremism. They all believe in holy wars that transcend ideas of peace and diplomacy.
Contrary to your assertion Buz, it is Judeo-Christo-Islamic fundamentalism vs sanity and moderation.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2003 11:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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