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Author Topic:   Time traveler caught on film in 1920?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 104 (588797)
10-28-2010 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
10-28-2010 11:33 AM


I don't see anything at all in her hand, but it begs the question of why a time traveller would attempt to use a cell phone in the 1920's. What is it going to connect to?

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 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 10-28-2010 11:33 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 104 (588867)
10-28-2010 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
10-28-2010 5:28 PM


And talking into her hand for no reason?

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 Message 18 by jar, posted 10-28-2010 5:28 PM jar has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 32 of 104 (589006)
10-29-2010 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by onifre
10-29-2010 12:50 PM


It's not that time travel is impossible, it's that there is no such thing as time outside of experienced time to travel to or from. It's nonsensical.
No, I disagree. Relativity makes the notion of time travel not only possible, but inevitable. The notion of time travel to the future is that you experience the passage of a certain amount of time, but everyone else experiences the passage of a much larger amount of time. The notion of time travel into the past is that you experience time in a backward direction, but everyone else experiences it in a forward direction.
All of these things are experimentally-verified consequences of general relativity.

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 34 of 104 (589014)
10-29-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Straggler
10-29-2010 6:12 PM


Re: Back In Time
I have never heard of any physics experiment that actually involves experiencing time backwards.
We have experimental evidence of creating negative curvature of space, and general relativity indicates that this is the same thing as backwards time travel.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 40 of 104 (589031)
10-29-2010 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by onifre
10-29-2010 6:40 PM


Since time is a unit of measuring distance, you can shorten the distance (with worm holes, black holes, etc.) and reduce the amount of experienced time.
Right. And so, if I take ten minutes but the world around me spins forward for ten years due to a time dilation effect from speed or high gravity, that's functionally time travel to the future. Similarly, if a closed timelike curve loops you around to the beginning of the curve, that's time travel too.
We live in a universe where "time travel", to some points in the future and perhaps some in the past, is a physical possibility. But my guess is that the engineering is prohibitive (to say the least.) Further, my guess is that at the very moment that anyone creates a time machine (or, well, will, since I don't think anyone has done it yet), someone from the future pops out of it to kill them. Otherwise we'd be up to our balls in time tourists all over the place.
First, there is no universal time to go backward from. You experience time at 300,000m/s temporally, that is, not moving at all. If you increase you speed spacially, you will (hypothetically) go no faster than the speed of light - or, 300,000m/s - (obviouslly nothing with mass can do that so you will go as fast as 99.999etc, the speed of light. Never actually reaching that c.) Time is experienced relative to the speed travelled by any object with mass, that is all "time" is. Currently you are travelling (temporally) at the speed of light, spacially maybe you're sitting down.
Ok, I don't understand what you're trying to say at all, not least of which because you're trying to measure time with speed, which makes no sense at all. But suffice to say that speed-related time compression is very much a real thing, and accelerating at great speed to take advantage of dilated time to "arrive in the future" - that is, experience a short passage of time while the rest of the universe experiences a great passage of time - is experimentally verified.
Second, time doesn't have directions because it is only experienced and not an actual 'thing."
Time is a very real component of the universe; it's a characteristic of the spacetime which the universe is comprised of.
If I'm not mistaken I believe Special Relativity deals with the speed of light and time.
Yes, but general relativity is the theory of which closed timelike curves are a consequence.

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 41 of 104 (589032)
10-29-2010 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by onifre
10-29-2010 7:48 PM


Re: This is what a virgin looks like
Don't you play this game?
I play WoW.
With my wife.
Who I bang.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by onifre, posted 10-29-2010 7:48 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 69 of 104 (589300)
11-01-2010 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by onifre
10-31-2010 2:48 PM


Another episode of "people without physics degrees argue general relativity"
If you bend spacetime you are shortening the space, you're not messing with time - it has the effect of experiencing a shorter time when measured - but it's not the same as "time" was bent.
No, you're literally bending time by bending spacetime. See? It's right there in the name. Your bending your personal time relative to the time experienced by someone not accelerating.
It's not "time" travel it's "shorter distance" travel.
But you're going a longer distance that the person in the nonaccelerating reference frame, because you're accelerating and they're not.
How in the past?
Via closed timelike curves.
You only experience time in the forwad direction, such that "in the past" is nonsensical.
Right. And as you traverse a closed timelike curve, you experience your own time going in a forward direction - the watch on your wrist ticks from 12:00 to 12:01 - but time outside of the curve is experienced in a backwards direction - the clock on the wall ticks from 12:00 to 11:59.
Time travel into the past, in other words. It's a permissibile solution to the Lorentz transformations in general relativity.
I'm not trying to measure time with speed, I'm saying that time is experienced differently at greater speeds.
Not precisely true. Time is experienced differently as a result of acceleration. Time is perceived differently as a result of speed. The difference I'm eluding to is the difference between observing a timepiece in your own frame of reference and observing a timepiece in someone else's frame of reference.
To illustrate - if you and I have synchronized watches, and you accelerate to near the speed of light and then come back, your watch is behind mine, because you've "traveled into the future"; you've experienced less passage of time than I have. If you and I have synchronized watches and you pass me on the Starlight Express at a constant rate of speed, then when you look at my watch, you see it ticking slower than your own. But when I look at your watch, I see it tick slower than mine.
Right, but this does not mean that one can go backward in time
No, you're right, the Twin Paradox is not how someone travels backwards in time, it's how someone travels forward in time. Closed timelike curves are how someone could theoretically travel backwards in time. Don't get confused, I'm talking about two separate phenomena but both are consequences of general relativity.
Only for things with mass, which can experience it.
Conveniently, everything in the universe except for spacetime has mass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by onifre, posted 10-31-2010 2:48 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 5:03 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 70 of 104 (589302)
11-01-2010 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by onifre
11-01-2010 12:43 PM


I think I see where you're getting hung up.
There is no universal time for it to slow down.
That doesn't make time travel impossible, because nobody wants to travel backwards in "universal time." They want, generally, to travel backwards or forwards in time relative to something else, like the rest of the world. This is permissible under general relativity as I've explained.

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 Message 68 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 12:43 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 5:06 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 73 of 104 (589320)
11-01-2010 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by onifre
11-01-2010 5:03 PM


Re: Another episode of "people without physics degrees argue general relativity"
One of the effects of curved space is time dilation, time is not actually bent.
No, time is actually bent by gravity, that's why the have to calibrate GPS satellites to correct for the distorted time we experience on the surface of the Earth.
CTC's are allowed in sub-microscopic scales, because there, GR breaks down.
Completely wrong. You're just making things up, now. Closed timelike curves exist as a necessary consequence of general relativity, so by definition they can't exist where general relativity doesn't apply. The quantum scale is precisely the very last place we should expect to see a closed timelike curve, because that's precisely where general relativity is the least descriptive.
One example of a macroscale closed timelike curve would be a wormhole where one mouth has been accelerated to near the speed of light (say, by rotation.) Passing through such a wormhole would allow you to observe yourself emerging from one mouth of the wormhole before you'd actually entered the other.
But there is no way, currently, to by-pass Hawking's Chronology protection conjecture (CPC)
There's no way to bypass it if the conjecture is true (by definition, because the conjecture is merely "time-travel is impossible on any but sub-atomic scales.") If the conjecture is false, then it's not necessary to bypass it.
Word salad.
No, a description of what a closed timelike curve is. I'm sorry you didn't understand it, but maybe you need to read up on your Lorentz transformations.
Except for a photon of course, that has zero mass and experiences zero time, right?
Photons in motion have mass as a consequence of their velocity.
You don't have to have a degree in physics to be well educated in relativity and cosmology.
So what's stopping you?

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 Message 71 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 5:03 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 6:12 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 104 (589321)
11-01-2010 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by onifre
11-01-2010 5:06 PM


How about relative to someone on Alpha Centauri?
But there isn't anyone on Alpha Centauri.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 6:20 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 77 of 104 (589328)
11-01-2010 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by onifre
11-01-2010 6:20 PM


Say there was, what would they see?
What would who see what?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 6:31 PM crashfrog has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 81 of 104 (589332)
11-01-2010 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by onifre
11-01-2010 6:12 PM


Re: Ok, lets actually get into this.
Are you sure that doesn't have to do with the difference in speed between the satellites and the Earth?
Yes, quite sure. That's the consequence of general relativity; standing at rest on the Earth's surface is equivalent to accelerating at 9.8 m/sec/sec.
Are you sure gravity isn't the result of curved spacetime and not the other way around?
In general relativity gravity and curved spacetime are equivalent.
No, they exist because there isn't a full theory of quantum gravity.
We can only speculate on the consequences of a theory of quantum gravity, because we don't have one. Thus you're free to suggest that a theory of quantum gravity will necessarily preclude time travel into the past, and I'm free to respond that in general relativity as we currently understand it, travel into the past is permissible under certain (practically impossible) circumstances.
Without a full QG theory this is still sci-fi.
Currently, so is a full theory of quantum gravity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 6:12 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by onifre, posted 11-01-2010 6:52 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 82 of 104 (589333)
11-01-2010 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
11-01-2010 6:30 PM


Now, how do I transfer myself from my reference frame to theirs so I show up on their film?
You match velocity and acceleration with the Planet Earth. That puts you into the same reference frame.
AbE: Let me expand your question and correct it, somewhat - as a consequence of these timelike curves, the best you can do is get back to the origin of the curve. So, in 1929, you create a "time machine." Later, in 2010, you step into the machine. You experience time continue in a forward direction - your watch ticks from 12:00 to 12:01 - but when you get out of the machine, you're at the origin of the timelike curve, in 1929. You don't have to do anything to "get into their reference frame", you're already sharing a reference frame with the Earth of 1929 because the exit of your time machine has always been in the same reference frame as Earth in 1929.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 104 (589334)
11-01-2010 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by onifre
11-01-2010 6:31 PM


So I asked, relative to someone on Alpha Centauri, what would they see - time wise?
They'd see whatever was going on around Alpha Centari, because that's where they are. What on Earth could you possibly be asking?
If you travel back in time relative to someone on Earth, using Einstein's field equations as you have suggested, what would in be relative to someone (hypothetically) in Centauri?
What would what be "in relative to someone in [Alpha] Centarui"? Seriously, Oni, you're making precisely zero sense with these questions.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 104 (589337)
11-01-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by onifre
11-01-2010 6:52 PM


Re: Ok, lets actually get into this.
CS writes:
Yes, quite sure.
I'm not CS.
Then you need to research that again, because it is actually the difference in speed of both objects (earth and the satellite).
I never said that it was not the speed as well, but it's a matter of settled fact that clocks desynchronize down on Earth compared to a high altitude due to the difference in proximity to a gravity source. That's absolutely true, it's been measured by a number of space probes, and it's a consequence of the equivalence of acceleration and gravity.
Gravity is the result of curved spacetime; which is curved by mass.
No, again, they're equivalent. Look, Oni, these are elementary matters that are covered in Brief History of Time as well as other books.
But you are not, at all.
I am, and do.
GR is local, that's the issue crashfrog.
This is not at all the issue. The issue is you continuing to make dunderheaded characterizations of general relativity because of a lack of knowledge on your part. I mean you didn't even know what a Lorentz transformation was.
Semiclassical QG works fine to represent reality, and it has chronology protection.
Well, no. It's conjectured to have "chronology protection", and it's assumed that a theory of quantum gravity will uphold that conjecture (because why else aren't we up to our tits in obnoxious American time tourists?) But that's not known. And until it is you have only a conjectural basis to assert that travel into the past is a physical impossibility, instead of just an incredibly difficult engineering problem (which is the conclusion of a number of physicists.)
The only way to get your time travel to circumvent this is by pulling the wool over people who don't understand relativity.
LOL! Yes, that's exactly right, Oni - I'm a member of the powerful Time Travel Lobby trying to put one over on people, just like the oil industry or Big Tobacco. Well, it's a good thing a comedian showed up to educate us all on general relativity.
What a tool you've become, lately.
A full QG theory might actually help your time travel hypothesis.
Maybe, but unlike you I'm not prepared to draw conclusions from theories that don't yet exist.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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