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Author Topic:   Potential falsifications of the theory of evolution
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 76 of 968 (588492)
10-26-2010 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Michael McBride
10-25-2010 5:56 PM


Any potential falsifications?
Hi Michael.
As you can see there has been a bit of a pile on, here. The reason for this is that the points you make are very common misconceptions many creos hold as givens.
I guess what I'm looking for is a smoking gun that can say that ToE is factually wrong.
But the one stipulation is that this smoking gun must be made of science and not religion.
Can you help me out?
Edited by Larni, : new sub title.

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 Message 69 by Michael McBride, posted 10-25-2010 5:56 PM Michael McBride has not replied

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Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 77 of 968 (588496)
10-26-2010 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Larni
10-26-2010 4:10 AM


Re: Any potential falsifications?
Content hidden. There was some on-topic content, but Bolder-dash won't be around to respond, so I've hidden the entire message. --Admin
Edited by Admin, : Hide content.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 78 of 968 (588500)
10-26-2010 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Bolder-dash
10-26-2010 7:41 AM


Bolder-dash Suspended for 4 Weeks
Hi Bolder-dash,
If you can't follow the Forum Guidelines then I'll continue suspending you for lengthy periods of time. See you around Thanksgiving.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 79 of 968 (588504)
10-26-2010 8:37 AM


Any one for another go?
So, is there any one out there on tinterweb who can provide a smoking gun and support it with actual evidence?

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 80 of 968 (588512)
10-26-2010 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Larni
10-26-2010 8:37 AM


Re: Any one for another go?
So, is there any one out there on tinterweb who can provide a smoking gun and support it with actual evidence?
no if there was he would be getting a noble prize, though there was one claim once uppon a time that actualy had merrit. A one cellular organism forgot the name had a interesting way of movement it had a "motor" some other parts and the tail sticking out that got rotated by the "motor" it was argued that evolution could not produce such a thing cause it was too complex to evolve as a single system, and the parts on their own where conshiderd ussles so it was proposed that it could not have evolved from combining other parts in to this whole that works.
It got debunked later one though some creos still use the little critter though they do not know why it was a problem for evolution usualy when the organisem gets pointed out by creos they mention everything about it except the initial problem it atcualy posed.
they usualy show a video of the organism moving and say look at that thing it can move so fast and stop on a dime evolution could not have made it.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 81 of 968 (588513)
10-26-2010 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by frako
10-26-2010 9:14 AM


Re: Any one for another go?
That would be the flagellar motor in bacteria. Micheal Behe proposed this and had his ass handed to him in the Dover trial for it.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

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AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 2876 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 82 of 968 (589400)
11-02-2010 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Larni
10-24-2010 7:40 AM


Re: Has any evidence been found yet?
quote:
I know this thread is old but is there anyone who can present evidence that ToE has been falsified (not how it could be, I mean actual evidence that has falsified ToE)?
  —Larni
The falsification of neo-Darwinian TOE will be a scientific process. It won't happen with one paper. However, I believe that the process has begun.
Now before I begin, I would like to define some terms for clarification:
TOE = The change in gene (allele) frequencies within a population over time. This is a narrow theory, and is often referred to as a "fact".
Neo Darwinian TOE = NDTOE = The neo Darwinian synthesis of TOE. It is a broad theory that uses TOE to postualte the origin of the species through common ancestry. It includes the evolutionary tree/bush, and the evolution of natural history.
This is really the theory in contention with creationists. Now please be advised.....I agree with TOE. Populations change over time. We see this. I agree. So please don't confuse the two in your arguments with me.
However, we cannot observe long periods of time except for the contentious fossil record. We cannot observe the dino/bird trasition that NDTOE theorizes. etc etc. It is the NDTOE that can be falsified, and that is what us creos are working towards.
As I said, the process has begun, and there is evidence. Dr. John Sanford has already published a few things on this subject, and more is coming. You can find his information here:
http://logosresearchassociates.org/...john-sanford/#more-136
His paper here claims falsification: http://logosresearchassociates.org/...Mendels-Accountant.pdf
This is not peer reviewed material, but Dr. Sanford has approximately 5 papers that will be peer reviewed and published in the science community by June of next year. Dr. Sanford is an extremely accomplished Biologist/ Genetisist and has a long track record of getting his papers published in the scientific community.
Dr. Sandford's work, when published and peer reviewed will not immediately falsify NDTOE. The claims will be made, but the process will take years, but I believe that the process has already begun, and population genetics will lead to the demise of NDTOE.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 968 (589404)
11-02-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by AlphaOmegakid
11-02-2010 9:01 AM


Re: Has any evidence been found yet?
The claims will be made, but the process will take years, but I believe that the process has already begun, and population genetics will lead to the demise of NDTOE.
Quite the contrary - all available evidence in population genetics supports the common descent of organisms. To the extent that Sanford's computer program demonstrates the contrary, that's simply evidence that he's a bad programmer.

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 Message 82 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-02-2010 9:01 AM AlphaOmegakid has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 84 of 968 (589407)
11-02-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by AlphaOmegakid
11-02-2010 9:01 AM


Re: Has any evidence been found yet?
AlphaOmegakid writes:
The falsification of neo-Darwinian TOE will be a scientific process.
Accepted scientific theories are never falsified. They are sometimes abandoned in favor of a better theory, but not because they have been falsified.
If you wonder why falsification is still used, it is because falsificationism is itself unfalsifiable. People still find it useful, though there is a lot of hedging of statements about falsifying. Simply put, falsificationism won't be abandoned until a better alternative becomes readily available and widely accepted.
Yawn!
The paper claims to have a theoretical refutation of neo-Darwinism. Biologists are regularly seeing empirical data that they find to be supportive of neo-Darwinism.
Which do you think will win the day - the theoretical analysis, or the actual empirical data?
The paper is based on a simulation, which claims to show that neo-Darwinism doesn't work. Yet, if I examine the literature of machine learning, I can find many simulations that are described as using the genetic algorithm (GA), and there is plenty of empirical evidence that GA works.
If it works with GA programming, but doesn't work with the program "Mendel's Accountant", then maybe Mendel's Accountant is just a dud program.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 85 of 968 (589411)
11-02-2010 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by AlphaOmegakid
11-02-2010 9:01 AM


Re: Has any evidence been found yet?
Just to echo what Crash and nwr have stated.
Mendel's Accountant is not an accurate model of reality.
GIGO at work here, I think.
Dr. Sanford ... ...has a long track record of getting his papers published in the scientific community.
When you read as many substandard peices of research as I have to you understand that a lot of what gets published is awful research (sometimes I feel like I'm reading about a strange land where error bars are an extinct species!).
Edited by Larni, : spellingk
Edited by Larni, : error bars n ting

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Replies to this message:
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olivortex
Member (Idle past 4778 days)
Posts: 70
From: versailles, france
Joined: 01-28-2009


Message 86 of 968 (589412)
11-02-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Larni
11-02-2010 10:47 AM


Re: Has any evidence been found yet?
Sorry to post this out of the blue but I just realized you also were on 4forums. I am too. Brackets closed .

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 87 of 968 (589416)
11-02-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by olivortex
11-02-2010 11:04 AM


Re: Has any evidence been found yet?
Yup, thats me in my old Boba Fett incarnation.
I normally hang out in the ID/Evo threads being a bit more mature and handsom than I am here.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 88 of 968 (589419)
11-02-2010 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by AlphaOmegakid
11-02-2010 9:01 AM


Re: Has any evidence been found yet?
As I said, the process has begun, and there is evidence. Dr. John Sanford has already published a few things on this subject, and more is coming. You can find his information here:
http://logosresearchassociates.org/...john-sanford/#more-136
His paper here claims falsification: http://logosresearchassociates.org/...Mendels-Accountant.pdf
According to Sanford's simulation, rabbits should have gone extinct a long time ago given their short generation time. They haven't. Reality demonstrates that Sanford's simulation is not representative of reality. There was a thread over at theologyweb and one over at infidel's that dealt with these calculations. I can dig them up if you want.
To put it another way . . .
A few years back there were some scientists who programmed a simulation dealing with aerodynamics. When they applied this program to bees the program told them that bees should not be able to fly. So who is right? The reality that bees are capable of flying or the simulation that says they can't?

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 89 of 968 (589425)
11-02-2010 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Larni
11-02-2010 10:47 AM


Research track record
When you read as many substandard peices of research as I have to you understand that a lot of what gets published is awful research
To be fair to Sanford I don't think there is any reason to think his research papers were bad, but they weren't to do with population genetics. He is best known for his work in the field of Biolistics and the development of 'gene gun' technology.
TTFN,
WK

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AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 2876 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 90 of 968 (589430)
11-02-2010 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Taq
11-02-2010 11:34 AM


Re: Has any evidence been found yet?
According to Sanford's simulation, rabbits should have gone extinct a long time ago given their short generation time.
Interesting claim, please support this with some evidence. I know of no such claim.
They haven't. Reality demonstrates that Sanford's simulation is not representative of reality.
Well, your claim is false. There are extinct species of rabbits. And there are some extremely close to extinction right now. Do you recognize reality, or is it something you just believe in?
There was a thread over at theologyweb and one over at infidel's that dealt with these calculations. I can dig them up if you want.
Why not bring forth your ideas and facts and arguments and let theirs stay where they are.
To put it another way . . .
A few years back there were some scientists who programmed a simulation dealing with aerodynamics. When they applied this program to bees the program told them that bees should not be able to fly. So who is right? The reality that bees are capable of flying or the simulation that says they can't?
Well if the simulation says rabbits are going extinct, and rabbits are indeed going extinct then I would say it is a pretty good model. Again, what is this reality you keep referring to?

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