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Author Topic:   Is there Biblical support for the concept of "Original Sin"?
Havok
Junior Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 4
From: USA
Joined: 10-25-2010


Message 3 of 240 (589536)
11-03-2010 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-01-2010 10:13 PM


Sin was entrampment
Hello,
Long time lurker.
Was actually planning on starting a thread on original sin as my first thread but figured I’d come in here to say my peace. As far as Paul goes, he places all his chips on the genesis story holding up. I look at the genesis account(s) rather differently; I see no wrong doing by Eve or Adam by eating the apple, and therefore see sin at best as non-existent at worst unjustly implemented. Let me explain what I mean.
Gen2 16 And the LORD God commanded
the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the
tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will
surely die."
Gen3 4 "You will not surely die,"
the serpent said to the woman. 5
"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and
you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
So from those two verses I infer that:
1. Man prior to "eating the apple" had no predisposition to or knowledge
of the concepts of "good and evil"
2. God willingly withheld the "knowledge" of "good and evil" when
creating man.
2a. Assertion 2 is backed up by the fact that the serpent was tempting
Adam and Eve with knowledge of good and evil, and would not be able to
do so if they already possessed such knowledge.
Adam and Eve were built incompletely, and were unable to handle making any informed decision in any matter regarding the morality of their decisions. Again remember
that these individuals apparently had never seen death (Bible says no
death prior to sin) so even gods not-so-veiled threat of death falls on
deaf ears because they would not fully understand what that was, and can
not be used to support the idea that Adam and Eve should have know
better(ie they knew the consequences). When you break this down god created an inefficient creation and then judges it unfairly.
My final assertion: God creating man and not giving him knowledge of
good and evil and then judging their actions (prior to gaining said
knowledge) as evil, well do I even need to finish this thought I think
at this point I've spelled it out pretty good, God's a dick, and Genesis
it the first "historical" case of entrapment.
I guess I can’t see how god can sit in judgment of a creation he made that was created unequipped to even understand the concepts of right and wrong and then grade them on those concepts. I can’t imagine your boss coming up to you in the morning and saying here is the MCAT good luck your job depends on it, and you happen to work at Wal Mart as a door greeter, not exactly up for the task at hand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 11-01-2010 10:13 PM jar has not replied

Havok
Junior Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 4
From: USA
Joined: 10-25-2010


Message 16 of 240 (589621)
11-03-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
11-03-2010 1:17 PM


That's not valid here since the consequences of disobeying God was "death". As my reading of the bible went, there was no death prior to sin. So how can Adam and Eve be held accountable to consequences that are out of their comprehension. They never had seen/heard of/or had explained the concept of death. "They knew the consequences" is not a valid argument given what the bible tells us happened.
quote:
pick up a knowledge of obedience and disobedience from the consequences
Here's another problem, this implies they get to learn from these mistakes, they don't get that chance they are kicked out ASAP. Also are you going to tell me that individuals that have no ability to know good/evil are competent enough to "pick up" anything? Not to mention what kind of "parent" leaves a individual with the mental capacities of a psycho path (not able to determine right from wrong) alone with something they aren't supposed to touch.
The fact is that the game was stacked against Adam from the get go, God allowed him and Eve, two completely incompetent individuals, to be alone with the snake and expects this all to turn out fine because he said not to eat the fruit?... Not only is that just a completely unrealistic expectation, not only is it rigged game (God knew what would happen) that's child neglect where I come from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 11-03-2010 1:17 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by frako, posted 11-03-2010 5:24 PM Havok has not replied
 Message 22 by iano, posted 11-03-2010 8:53 PM Havok has replied

Havok
Junior Member (Idle past 4780 days)
Posts: 4
From: USA
Joined: 10-25-2010


Message 31 of 240 (589785)
11-04-2010 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
11-03-2010 8:53 PM


quote:
A few days prior to the garden event, God drops a large stone on Adams toe. Adam yells with pain. God says: "see the stars in the sky. Now imagine what it would be like if that many large stones fell on your toe and you'll begin to understand what death is like".
It doesn't matter whether death is like that. What matters is a negative association with the word death is made.
We don't know how Adam came by his understanding of any word but if we are to assume he understood something of any of them then we have to assume he had an understanding of them all. Including the word death.
A negative association with the word would suffice for the purpose of choice made available.
except that association was never made nor did that narrative happen. God said don't eat it or "you will surely die" if i say don't do that or you will surely gloobaxym. what meaning do you give to gloobaxym without knowing what it really means with that sentence can be read as positive or negative. we have nothing to go off of other than what the bible states happened.
quote:
Adam and Eve could have been smart as hell. More competent to make consequential decisions than you or I perhaps.
the only thing we can infer is that they had no knowledge of good and evil nothing is said of their competency, though if they are lacking any ability to reason morality i can not foresee very good reasoning skills at all. This of course is totally pointless to speculate one way or the other at all.
If God's judgment lacked any type of moral factor (just disobey/obey) then I see no reason at all to attribute any reason to worship a being that is going to judge us now based on morality while he is conveniently lacking any such requirement to act in kind.
quote:
It seems to me that it's you whose stacking the deck. What's written is negative and positive consequence offered. We're not told the power of either consequence being weighed to ensure a 'choice' in a particular direction. It seems fair that we assume a balanced choice for want of evidence to the contrary
a FAIR choice is one that lays out all options and consequences to the one choosing so that a FAIR choice can be made once they outcomes are fully expressed that was never done. by not saying the "power" of the consequences assures that the choice IS STACKED against Adam, he is not fully informed and can not make an FULLY INFORMED choice, by definition that choice is unfair. I won't even get into the moral implications of withholding pertinent info on something like a choice of this magnitude (its wrong, and doesn't say much for the morality of god)
Do you consider this story to be literal? I mean was there a fruit that was eaten, and that in turn caused our sin, so we die?? Because when i read this story this is exactly just like the opening sales pitch of a snake oil salesman, he tells you you have a fictitious problem and that he has the only "cure" for it.
If you do think this really happened literally, then you got a lot more explaining to do about god than just a consequence only based judgment. (see all of the forums that are about how literal genesis COULDN'T have happened as literally stated.
and if its a metaphor of some kind well then i can't see a reason as to why sin even exists as it is simply a metaphor. Genesis is pretty much its own kryptonite, it is either fable, and if so is not meant literally, or if literal then has problems with being steadfastly wrong based upon literally EVERYTHING we know about the physical sciences. Not to much wiggle room from where I'm standing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 11-03-2010 8:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 11-04-2010 8:32 PM Havok has not replied

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