Is there Biblical support for the concept of "Original Sin"?

A claim often made is that there is a Biblical supported concept of "Original Sin", and that the concept is basic to Christianity.Most often the quote they point to is Romans 5 where Paul allegedly writes:

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12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

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13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

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15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

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18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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Even in that passage Paul admits that he is being imprecise and inaccurate.

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13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

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So even Paul admits that sin existed before any law or commandment existed, but he provides nothing to support even that position.The passage gets even more confusing because he then goes on to say that Adam is the pattern of the one to come.It seems that Paul is making a claim that sin and death only existed because of Adam.Well, if we actually look at the story in Genesis 2&3, does it support what Paul appears to be asserting?Does Paul have some basis for the assertion in Romans 5?Bible A&I likely

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Actually, we agree that it is likely that Pal is referring to the Garden of Eve story, however, reading it I find absolutely no support for the position that Adam or Eve were even capable of sinning until after they had eaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They just plain did not have the tools needed to make decisions on right or wrong.In addition, it clearly says that death is already in the world and that humans like anything else will die. Otherwise there was absolutely no reason to even create the Tree of Life.We seem to agree that Paul is using Genesis 2&3, it is just that Genesis 2&3 don't support his argument.Now, if he had made reference to the myth found in Genesis 4 I think he might have been able to make a better although still very weak case.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

I think you very neatly summed up what I see as the Christian concept of Original Sin, it is based on a claim made by Paul taken out of context where it seems Paul is referring to the Genesis 2&3 myth. And, as I pointed out, I can see no way that Adam or Eve were even capable of knowing they should obey until after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.We also know based on the story, that the consequences of their action were not as originally outlined by the character God, but rather an entirely different set of punishments. We also know that the consequences of their actions were exactly what was described by the serpent and NOT what had been described by the God Character. In addition there is no mention of some Original Sin that would then be inherited by others.I agree that Paul made those claims, I simply do not see support in the Bible for his position.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

because Paul seems to base his assertion on the Genesis 2&3 account and Genesis 2&3 do not support his position. Of course, they did not die that very day, so that consequence is irrelevant.But the big thing is that like Paul, you are simply making unsupported assertions. You claim that they should know to obey a command when they still have no knowledge of right or wrong, of whether they should believe the God character or the serpent.There is simply no support that I can find in the story that says they should know to obey.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

No, I mean "Did Paul have any support for his position and assertion or was he simply wrong?" But it still requires a knowledge that they should follow orders from one source as opposed to some later source.That requires as a minimum a requirement that they know one action is right while another action is wrong.God, of course, offered no choices.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

And the story in Genesis 2&3 contradicts what he claims. Before children have a concept of right or wrong they tend to simply follow the most recent authority figure. To expect any other behavior would be quite frankly stupid and to punish children for such behavior reprehensible.Neither sin nor death entered the world because of the actions of one man unless, of course, Paul was laying the blame on the God character. And the story tells us nothing about whether or not God allowed the serpent into the garden.But that of course is not relevant to the story. In the story the God character simply says "On the day you do this you will surely die."And of course, that is simply untrue.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Yes it does. You even quote Paul equating disobedience with sin.But before eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, neither Adam nor Eve had the capability, the tools understand the difference between obey or disobey or that they should obey one authority figure over another.Like children, they simply obeyed the most recent authority figure. Because in the story, they are like children and behave like very young children. An adult would have years of experience dealing with things like consequences, like right and wrong, like should and should not that neither Adam nor Eve had. Of course not, we are assuming the God character in the story who is not all powerful, very bright, omniscient. He too is simply fumbling, learning on the job, prone to fear.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

But they did choose to obey, they obeyed the most recent authority figure.You seem to expect them to understand that it is right to obey the God character in the story but wrong to obey the serpent character in the story.Until after they gained the knowledge and capability to distinguish right from wrong, they were incapable of mak9ing the decisions you seem to expect.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Let's look again.Romans 5:12-14 as found in the NIV

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12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

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13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

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and the KJV

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12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

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13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

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14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

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and in the iano post that does not give attribution but appears to be Romans 5:19...

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For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners

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As you can see, once again, when you look at the material IN context, Paul is claiming that sin entered the world through one man and that death is the result of sin.Next, as I pointed out, Adam and Eve did obey. They simply obeyed the most recent authority figure, one that actually in the story was telling the truth.If you look at what is written in Genesis 2&3, until Adam and Even had the tools and capability to make decision regarding who they should obey, they behaved in the only way they could, they like little children obeyed the most recent authority figure.The subject is "Original Sin" and until Adam and Eve had the tools, the knowledge of good and evil, of right and wrong, there is simply no way that they could sin. Nor is there anything in the story that supports some original sin that then was passed down generation to generation.There were consequences, and those consequences are listed, but none of the listed consequences involves some inherited sin.As I have said many times, if YOUR chapter of Club Christian wishes to claim that there is some Original Sin and base that on Romans 5, then fine.I will simply continue to post the material IN context and claim that Paul did not support his assertion.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

My point is that the concept of Original sin that is marketed by Paul and much of Christianity is simply wrong and not supported by the Bible. I support it by pointing to their behavior. If you like I will gladly post all of Genesis 2 & 3 again, I certainly have in the past.There is nothing in either that shows Adam or Eve had any way of knowing they should obey the God character or the serpent.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Well, I have presented my best support for my position, and the audience can decide whether it was sufficient. I have also said you and YOUR chapter of Club Christianity are free to market YOUR version.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

I agree that it is wrong and also that it is a horrific idea that has only two purposes, it is effective marketing and an easy cop out, a way to avoid personal responsibility.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

As a little child I named all the animals, the flutterbys, the rollies, the wigglers. the teweets, the wentthatways...And yes, they did not have the knowledge, the tools, the capabilities to know to obey one direct command over another or obey one authority figure over another.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

First, Paul based his argument on Genesis 2&3. That is where he looked for support. And the NIV says

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16 To the woman he said,

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I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.

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and the KJV says

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16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

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BUT... what do any of those have to do with original sin?As I read Genesis I don't find things going downhill. Sure, just as in life, there are highs and lows, good and bad, but nothing remarkably different, nothing to show that everyone is damned by some original sin.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Perhaps they should, but little children do NOT know that, it is one of the things that they learn as they learn about right and wrong. Yes, I believe that you see it that way, but that is NOT what the story actually says.The serpent is actually the one character that tells the truth, the God character does not.The big issue is how the story is viewed, and I think Paul did Christianity a great disservice in his interpretation.I see the story as mankind getting a great gift, the capability of tell right from wrong and the charge to try to do right.Yes, just as with Prometheus stealing fire from the gods, there is a price, but the gift is worth so much more than the penalties imposed.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!