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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 145 of 296 (522369)
09-03-2009 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
09-02-2009 1:40 PM


Topic?
Trying to square the concept of Hell with Christian Theology is interesting and all, but perhaps it deserves a topic in its own right?
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 Message 140 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 1:40 PM iano has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 146 of 296 (581767)
09-17-2010 12:36 PM


Bump
Since the topic came up in Existence After Death I thought I'd bump this old thread. The topic in the other thread is about how life after death may be obtained as well as the question of what matters in survival - but the related subject 'would I want it anyway?' is often not far behind...
  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 153 of 296 (586834)
10-15-2010 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Bolder-dash
10-14-2010 11:38 PM


And then I finally exhaled with a great sigh of understanding, when I finally realized that no, it can not be possible that anyone, with even the least imagination or reasoning skills necessary to perform just the rudimentary requirements of life such as preparing food, or bathing one's self, could possibly be so delusional as to believe that they could forecast their state of mind in an unknowable state.

The thread is about trying to persuade me that Eternal Life is to be anticipated as something to look forward to. I agree it is unknowable - but is there any scenario at all which would be something to look forward to?

How odd though, that the frying pan smack still hurt like hell. I had thought that cracking virtual frying pans to the skull would hurt a lot less and produce much less bruising in a dream state than it does in reality (boy was I wrong!) Oh well, at least I still have this text in front of me, to confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that none of this silliness could possibly be real. The lucidity of my dreams is fascinating though.

If you'd feel like addressing the points raised, rather than sarcastically attempting to dismiss them - I'll be here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-14-2010 11:38 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-15-2010 3:59 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 156 of 296 (586852)
10-15-2010 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Bolder-dash
10-15-2010 3:59 AM


Well, I can think of one scenario if I can just take a stab at it. The one in which the afterlife would be something you enjoy beyond anything you have ever experienced before, and which there is no definition for on our earthly world.

That's just one of the scenarios I racked my brain with for weeks and weeks to come up with. Need another?

You said you read the whole thread. The OP raises this kind of afterlife and why I would not look forward to it and subsequent posts cover it. How about responding to those rather than asking me to repeat the points?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-15-2010 3:59 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-15-2010 8:35 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 160 of 296 (586969)
10-15-2010 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Bolder-dash
10-15-2010 8:35 PM


Did you accidentally respond to the wrong person? The reason I am assuming you are responding to the wrong person is because when someone says they read some of the thread they usually don't mean they read the whole thread (note the positioning of the word "some" in my text as opposed to the positioning of the word "whole" in your text for more clues), so when you said to me that I said I read the whole thread you surely either were referring to someone else or else you are not very precise with the English language.

Yes, very good. I notice that you decided to ignore the actual criticism which was that the very first post in this thread addressed your response despite your confident attitude of dismissal which would imply you understood it.

There is nothing you can say, there is nothing you would ever be able to say that would validate your conclusion that you don't believe that an afterlife is something that would be suitable for you.

Very well, if that is the case your God joins the rest of the Gods in this thread which have failed to bring a persuasive case for eternal life. I will continue to not look forward to it.

The concept is that its an experience that awaits you after you die, that you can't know about yet, but that is a state of eternal bliss , eternal satisfaction, eternal peace. You are certainly free to say that you don't believe that such a place exists, but to suggest that you don't believe you would enjoy eternal peace even if it did exist is worse than a baby trying to understand sex, its worse than a squid trying to understand perestroika, its worse than sloths debating Carl Jung.

I never for one moment said I wouldn't enjoy it. Indeed in Message 5 I said

quote:
I'd have no choice but to be happy and fulfilled... It is certainly no life I'd choose to lead

So if you're going to try and persuade me that it is a life I should choose to lead, you can't just describe the life - I have already indicated I'm aware of the scenario and that it doesn't appeal to me: I find no meaning or purpose in an eternal state of bliss.

Its about akin to a 2 year old baby saying, you know I think kissing girls would be so so yucky, I would never ever ever want to do that. Only even more of an uninformed opinion because at least a 2 year old can see what woman look like.

The same applies to your assertion about how great it would all be. I am perfectly content to be wrong in this issue, and maybe when I'm 56 I will have a different view. My point is, that in my current state of mind, I don't find eternal life such a great prospect (either I don't care or don't want it). It is nowhere near as great a temptation to me as it is trumpeted by theists of various persuasions as if it was a self-evident truth.

As a thirty year old, I feel largely the same, though I haven't mulled on it for a while.

So we're both 2 year olds. You think kissing girls would be great, I ask why? Is that such a crazy question?

Where is that skillet, I need to whack myself in the head again, this is such a long dream.

Might I recommend pinching? The problem with skillets is if you have mistaken the waking world for the dreaming one you could end up impairing your brain function.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-15-2010 8:35 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 169 of 296 (587002)
10-16-2010 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Bolder-dash
10-16-2010 12:00 AM


Well, I would never really try to convince someone else about what their own personal beliefs should be, but let's suppose for a moment that in this afterlife is everyone you have ever known waiting there for you.

Sounds great.

Or you can say that you will prefer to just disappear into a black void of nothingness. Never find the answers to anything, and never see all your loved ones ever again. Are you really equipped in this world right now to make that choice?

Sounds like an easy choice. I think I'm perfectly equipped right now to decide if I want all my curiosity fulfilled and all my social interactions resolved. There is, after all, a finite supply of that so:-

What about eternal life when everything that happened on earth very rapidly becomes a minor chapter in humanity's life?

It seems to me that you are saying that neither of us equipped to know what eternal life would be like or whether it would be enjoyable. If we agree on that, then we must both agree that there is no reason to look forward to it - right?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Bolder-dash, posted 10-16-2010 12:00 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 170 of 296 (587003)
10-16-2010 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Buzsaw
10-15-2010 10:51 PM


Re: Eternal Life In The Biblical Heaven Good; Biblical Alternative Bad
All that scripture says about Heaven makes earth life look shabby in comparison, and the Lake of Fire absolutely horrible beyond immagination.

Aye.

quote:
{mansions....cities of gold and gems...}

I don't see any reason to care about baubles or why living amongst them for eternity is intrinsically appealing.

One had better be absolutely sure that all of the prophecies cited, the Exodus evidence and other phemonena cited is all bogus before one should not fear the alternative to Heaven stated relative to unbelief and rejection of the gospel of Jesus.

I am absolutely sure, and do not have fear that I might be cast into Tartarus or eager anticipation of Elysian Fields.

Modulous, I've stated the above and cited the scripture above to say that there is every reason to aspire to attain Heaven and no logical reason to subject one's self to the alternative who refuse it.

Sure - if you're going to say the choices are 'Ecstasy or torture' it's a simple choice. But that isn't what I'm asking about. I'm asking - regardless of how I'm to spend eternal life, given the objections raised - why should I look forward to it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Buzsaw, posted 10-15-2010 10:51 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Buzsaw, posted 10-16-2010 2:59 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 175 of 296 (587015)
10-16-2010 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Thugpreacha
10-16-2010 8:45 AM


Re: Who are you?
*Ducks into nearby phone booth, calls God collect, and asks for instructions*

Finally!

Naturally, I want all of my children to stick around for the adventures that begin after you die, but of course I am capable of granting you the option of ceasing to exist....but tell me why you would want such a choice?

Not having an infinite brain - I cannot conceive eternity. I have seen people desire to end their own existence, and maybe one day too I will want to bring my story to its conclusion. For all I know - even 250 years may be more than enough.

Do you seem to believe that all that you were meant to accomplish has been done?

Surely all I care about, Lord, are what I mean to accomplish. If what I mean to accomplish happens to agree with you then that's great - but a task that can never be completed can never be accomplished. So will I get to finally accomplish my purpose or not?

And a question for you to ponder: What is Recreation?

Re-creation or recreation? The capitals have thrown me.

Did the owner of the car want the upgrade? Assume that the car is analogous to the human body/mind. Have we asked for the upgrades along the way? Were we willing to endure the discomfort that some of them may have temporarily caused? Do we know why we wish to upgrade ourselves, and do we have a goal in mind at the end of our life here on earth?

But why should I care about Modulous mk 2500? An entity so different than I that to call it 'me' would be stretching the meanings of the words to breaking point. I'm not inherently objecting to that - I just don't think it is much to sing and dance about. The part that I might want to 'survive' does not really survive forever.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 193 of 296 (587050)
10-16-2010 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Buzsaw
10-16-2010 2:59 PM


Re: Eternal Life In The Biblical Heaven Good; Biblical Alternative Bad
I can understand not wanting eternal life in torment, but would you really loathe eternal life in peaceful and joyful bliss and plenty of good things to eat and do in a perfect world of kingdoms?

It's not just about loathing it. I would obviously not loathe it if I was 'living' it. But existence is more than hollow and pointless gratification to me, and I don't want it if that's all it amounts to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Buzsaw, posted 10-16-2010 2:59 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Buzsaw, posted 10-16-2010 5:50 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 208 of 296 (587111)
10-16-2010 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Buzsaw
10-16-2010 5:50 PM


Re: Eternal Life In The Biblical Heaven Good; Biblical Alternative Bad
It is not pointless for those of us who acknowledge that God has a good purpose for all things he does.

You are keen to define your way to victory: you might as well say, 'Eternal life is everything you want it to be, no more no less' as a means of persuasion. Here you are simply asserting the existence of a purpose for it all to persuade me it isn't pointless.

OK, so somebody has a purpose in mind. It is my mind that is in question here, and I don't see the point of the existence you described. If you can tell me what the point is, I'll let you know if I want to sign up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Buzsaw, posted 10-16-2010 5:50 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by frako, posted 10-17-2010 5:28 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 211 of 296 (587143)
10-17-2010 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Buzsaw
10-17-2010 8:35 AM


unattractive
The impetus of my point is that Jehovah is the designer, creator, planner and manager of the entire universe. The point, perse, is that all we need do is to get in sinct with whatever purpose the manager has for humans on this tiny speck in his universe.

OK - but you can't make that look attractive? Understood.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 10-17-2010 8:35 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-17-2010 9:38 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 10-17-2010 9:51 AM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 217 of 296 (587159)
10-17-2010 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
10-17-2010 9:51 AM


Re: unattractive
That brings us back to square one; evidence of Jehovah and credibility of the Biblical record.

I don't require evidence - I'm happy to grant whatever eternal life you want to conjure up as being true in order to sensibly discuss it. I'm just asking for you to make it sound attractive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 10-17-2010 9:51 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 10-17-2010 12:16 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 10-22-2010 7:59 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 222 of 296 (588196)
10-22-2010 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Buzsaw
10-22-2010 7:45 PM


Re: Getting to know the Boss
What members like Modulous verbally call for is evidence.

Have I done so on this thread? I must have missed that. I took your golden city with gems at face value and rejected it as something that I don't look forward to. I didn't request evidence such a place exists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Buzsaw, posted 10-22-2010 7:45 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Buzsaw, posted 10-22-2010 8:10 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 225 of 296 (588254)
10-23-2010 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Buzsaw
10-22-2010 7:59 PM


Re: unattractive
You're contradicting yourself, Mod. I'm honing on on the phrase, "as being true." How can you espouse something as being true aside from evidence to support it's truthfulness?

I'm not espousing it as true, I'm granting it as true. I don't need to believe it is true in order to make decisions about its appeal.

Attractive? Like living happily ever after?

Right - see OP for why I don't find this attractive.

Secondly, my comment as to required evidence relates to your MO in the EvC archived debates. You (abe: usually) advocated cited evidence for all things alleged to be true, did you not?

Yes - but the truth of the claims in this thread is not relevant so raising that objection in this thread is irrelevant. You claim 'my mind is set' - but if my mind was set I would not have started a thread to discuss it. I wanted to hear why other people found eternal life attractive, but it turns out that for the most part they have seriously divergent tastes than I do.

Of course, you could assume the worst of me, that I am discussing in bad faith. But it makes no odds to my metahphysical position one way or another whether an attractive eternal life could be conceived. I admit, I was fairly certain that the dilemma is complete - that there is no escape route. However, I am more persuaded this is the case having subjected it to rigorous testing from the members here at EvC.

You have a notion of eternal life that you find attractive. I'm sure that's very comforting. I don't find it attractive, and I can't be blamed for that! Sorry Buz, you tried - but your incentive scheme isn't as compelling to me (and others) as you might have assumed.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


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 Message 223 by Buzsaw, posted 10-22-2010 7:59 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 230 of 296 (590094)
11-05-2010 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by herebedragons
11-05-2010 3:37 PM


Hi Mod…

Hi, herebedragons,
Thank you for carefully considering my OP and addressing it directly with a clear and thought out response. It is significantly appreciated.

I ran across your post the other day and I must say that you do have a bleak perspective of the afterlife.

Only the eternal ones

Part of the reason I want to participate in this forum is to better understand the “other side’s” perspective – what different ways of looking at things do people have. In doing so, I hope to have a better understanding of what I believe and why.

Respect.

That's what I'm doing here too. I hope we can help each other achieve our goals!

My point is that I realized I had never really thought about it before. I guess I took heaven for granted … streets of gold, pearly gates, etc, etc … as opposed to eternal suffering and torment – not a hard choice. But you brought up some excellent points that made me really think about it and wonder if eternal life really would be desirable?

Whatever conclusion you reach, I'm gratified that I took something someone took for granted and made them consider it more closely.

There are two prongs in the dilemma. I'll deal with the easy one first.

Static personality

In many versions of immortality my personality remains the same for all eternity. What horror!

That would be a horror!

Excellent, so we're committing to the more palatable, dynamic personality prong. And don't need to worry about this direction at all.

Dynamic personality

Even though I too am a completely different person than I was when I was 18, I don’t see that person as dead, but the person I am now is the sum, or rather the product, of all the experiences I have had. I would not be the person I am today if not for the choices, good and bad, that I made then. I understand what you mean though, the things that are important to me then are not important to me now. I would not want to go back and re-live those days, so in that way that person is dead. But I don’t think I would be who I am today, for better or worse, except for who I was then and the things that happened since. So I expect that is the way the future will be, who I am will continue to grow and develop.

I agree in the case of being 18 to present age it seems kind of not to pan out. I'm glad the example sparked off an interesting thought process though so let's try something else. Let's try it backwards.

Let's imagine that I died when I was 7. But when I was 6, someone told me that I would survive my death and after twenty or so years in the afterlife I'd work in a boring job in post-life insurance, having rejected Christianity and so on. I can't see my 6 year old self caring a great deal about that and if offered an alternative, would conceivably take that. That is, my 6 yr old self has no loyalty about my present day self.

Of course, this seems to assume a boring afterlife, but the lack of caring of the future self is the key component. This was kind of what I was driving at, and again the example is just to get across the concept - not as proof of it.

When we're talking about 500 years of change - I would expect my future personality to be much more radically different than possible with the mere 25 or so years of change that I can realistically cite at my present age.

Another example, perhaps more illuminating that the last. Imagine if, when you die, a crazy genius reconstructs your personality in an android. Then he implants billions of false memories, which alter the perception of the real memories - possibly pushing some of them from future consideration altogether. The false memories also result in a changing of all your goals, opinions and desires. Would you really care if the genius told you he would do this for you in advance?

The question turns to: What do I want to survive when I'm talking about surviving my death?

Earlier in the thread I quoted Bernard Williams, and I think you'd find it an interesting quote so I'll repost it

quote:
two important conditions which must be satisfied by anything which is to be adequate as a fulfilment of my anti-Lucretian hope, namely that it should be clearly me who lives for ever. The second important condition is that the state in which I survive should be one which, to me looking forward, will be adequately related, in the life it presents, to those aims that I now have in wanting to survive at all

(From, Reflections on the Tedium of Immortality)

OK, so let's seriously consider some things here. I've raised tedium with my last quote, and it's an important point I've mostly glossed over in this thread so let's look at it.

Tedium

Forever isn't just a long time. It's forever.

Could you imagine being able to study and explore every inch of this universe and all its wonders? Could you imagine exploring a black hole or the inner workings of a quasar, being able to see the inner workings of a cell or actually witness chemical reactions taking place? There is just no end to the possibilities. Unless all this knowledge is just zapped into our minds (which would be boring) I would never get tired of learning and exploring.

Never? Don't get me wrong - an afterlife where I get to access the source code to the universe and explore it at my leisure sounds great. But never getting tired of it? After your ten billionth quasar would you not be thinking 'When you've seen a million quasars you've seen them all!'? To borrow from the Holy Bible:

quote:
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Surely - there is only a finite number of things that exist that can hold your interest? Surely, at some point, learning and experiencing things take on a certain repeated character?

I cannot say for sure, but that seems to me to be the most likely outcome of this philosopher's immortality - what mix of activities could help pass the time FOREVER? At what point do you realize that all you are doing is passing time, with no reason or purpose for so doing? When does the soul crushing depression at the interminable prospect of having just scratched the surface of time killing? After ten billion years of finding ways to keep busy - do you look forward to another fifty billion years? Knowing that you would still be relatively 'young' (and when you realize that compared with forever any time period is not even a drop in the ocean).

So I argue that fun, exciting or emotionally stimulating activities can make an afterlife attractive - they cannot possibly make for an attractive eternity.

Unless:

Amnesia

Memory isn't perfect in our brains. This is actually rather helpful - since it gives us extra impetus towards enjoying doing things again.
What if this were true of the afterlife. If it were possible to forget how much fun it was to play in a pulsar or explore 11 dimensional space, then we might be able to enjoy eternity. But this means we'd fall foul of the 'what did we want to survive for' problem. Eventually there would be a being that might not remember what it was like to be who I am now. And even if it did, it is unlikely to 'cycle round' to have the same opinions, goals, desires etc as I once did and even if it did then I'd surely just repeat what I did the first time and that seems kind of meaningless too.

We could have all the same perks with a temporary afterlife. So I think, if we follow this prong we end up in horrifying tedium or in a state where having eternity confers no more benefits than a more temporal afterlife.

Time is perceived differently

So, my final though is about time itself. Who is to say that time would even exist in the afterlife or that we would be aware of it. Time is a human understanding that we measure based on the cycles of nature – night/day, revolution around the sun, etc … What if time was no longer measured in that way. It seems to me that it is precisely because of our mortality that we even care about time. We need to get here or there because our time is so limited and we only have so much time available. But what if time is no longer a restraint? Would it even matter? Maybe just like when you get busy doing something you enjoy and all of sudden you look up and say “Wow, it’s been four hours! Where did the time go?” maybe in the afterlife all of sudden you’ll think “Wow, it’s been a billion years! It seemed like just a few minutes.”

I disagree with your notion of time - but even were I to accept it, it just compresses an infinite amount of time to an infinite amount of time. Sure, we may get so absorbed in something that billions of years of subjective times passes though it only feels like a few minutes, but that's just a billion years. We have a billion more of them and a heck of a lot more to come. It doesn't get us out of the essential problem I'm afraid.

I certainly don’t claim my answers are “inspired” and I don’t know for sure what the afterlife will hold but I hope you at least think my take on this is intriguing even if you’re not convinced.

It inspired me to read some Williams and Kagan again - that's good enough for me


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by herebedragons, posted 11-05-2010 3:37 PM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by herebedragons, posted 11-23-2010 11:05 AM Modulous has responded

  
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