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Author Topic:   Is Evolution the Work of Satan?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 61 of 104 (591135)
11-11-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Stephen Push
11-11-2010 8:42 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Stephen Push writes:
Natural selection and cultural evolution explain -- without the need to invoke a supernatural being -- why humans are sometimes altruistic. I say "sometimes" because humans are also sometimes selfish, callous, and murderous. I see no reason, other than wishful thinking, to give God credit for our better nature while shielding Him from any association with our dark side.
If there was no dark side then we wouldn't have the free will to choose love, compassion, joy, forgiveness etc. We would simply be robots. God has given us the choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Stephen Push, posted 11-11-2010 8:42 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Stephen Push, posted 11-11-2010 10:32 PM GDR has replied

  
Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 62 of 104 (591137)
11-11-2010 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by GDR
11-11-2010 8:51 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
GDR writes:
If there was no dark side then we wouldn't have the free will to choose love, compassion, joy, forgiveness etc. We would simply be robots. God has given us the choice.
Which brings us full circle to my OP, in which I acknowledged that the above answer might arguably explain the need for moral evil but cannot explain suffering caused by natural phenomena.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 11-11-2010 8:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 2:12 AM Stephen Push has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 63 of 104 (591147)
11-12-2010 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Stephen Push
11-11-2010 10:32 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Stephen Push writes:
Which brings us full circle to my OP, in which I acknowledged that the above answer might arguably explain the need for moral evil but cannot explain suffering caused by natural phenomena.
I underdstood that which is why I was surprised that you raised the point. I have explained my understanding of the fact that we have natural disasters even though I worship a benevolent creator in earlier posts in this thread.
The only other point that I would add is that as a Christian I believe that Christ did suffer and die on the cross and so is very aware and sympathetic when it comes to suffering. Again, with this in mind, I believe that things are the way they are for a good reason that is beyond human understanding, but at the end of time things will be made right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Stephen Push, posted 11-11-2010 10:32 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by frako, posted 11-12-2010 4:11 AM GDR has replied
 Message 68 by Stephen Push, posted 11-12-2010 11:51 AM GDR has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 64 of 104 (591152)
11-12-2010 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
11-12-2010 2:12 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
I underdstood that which is why I was surprised that you raised the point. I have explained my understanding of the fact that we have natural disasters even though I worship a benevolent creator in earlier posts in this thread.
The only other point that I would add is that as a Christian I believe that Christ did suffer and die on the cross and so is very aware and sympathetic when it comes to suffering. Again, with this in mind, I believe that things are the way they are for a good reason that is beyond human understanding, but at the end of time things will be made right.
Im gonna pull a creo argument out of my sleave. What if you are wrong ? And the Jews are right then you will go to hell for worsheping a false idol.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 2:12 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 11-12-2010 9:32 AM frako has not replied
 Message 67 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 11:09 AM frako has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 65 of 104 (591155)
11-12-2010 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by GDR
11-11-2010 8:48 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
GDR writes:
When we discuss things on this forum that go beyond what we can sort out empirically there are no terms that seem to be acceptable. What terms should be used for something that you believe but which there is no empirical evidence.
'Made up' and 'Imaginary' and 'Faith' are acceptable terms.
GDR writes:
Just a tad condescending however, I am just trying to sort out my beliefs about the truth of our existence as we all do. We obviously have come to different conclusions.
It does appear a little condescending, and TBH I probably meant it to be a little condescending.
But I think it applies to all of us in some aspect of our lives.
Maybe I should have worded it: "But whatever gets one through one's day, I guess".
I was feeling magnanimous - make the most of it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 11-11-2010 8:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 104 (591173)
11-12-2010 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by frako
11-12-2010 4:11 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Im gonna pull a creo argument out of my sleave. What if you are wrong ? And the Jews are right then you will go to hell for worsheping a false idol.
Then we are wrong.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by frako, posted 11-12-2010 4:11 AM frako has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 67 of 104 (591186)
11-12-2010 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by frako
11-12-2010 4:11 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
frako writes:
Im gonna pull a creo argument out of my sleave. What if you are wrong ? And the Jews are right then you will go to hell for worsheping a false idol.
Here is a quote from the the Bible for you. It is Micah 6:8
He has told you O man what is good; And what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
What God wants from all of us is to want the best for everyone, treat everyone fairly, and not to think to highly of ourselves. God is much more concerned about the condition of our hearts than He is our theology.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by frako, posted 11-12-2010 4:11 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by frako, posted 11-13-2010 3:36 PM GDR has replied

  
Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 68 of 104 (591191)
11-12-2010 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
11-12-2010 2:12 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
GDR writes:
I underdstood that which is why I was surprised that you raised the point. I have explained my understanding of the fact that we have natural disasters even though I worship a benevolent creator in earlier posts in this thread.
I focused on the issue of "natural evil" because it is relevant to biological evolution and is the more problematic question for those who believe in a 3OG (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God). But I don't buy the free will answer to moral evil either. Does the existence of free will require a 3OG to allow 6 million Jews to perish in the Holocaust? Included among those victims were infants who never reached an age at which they could exercise free will. Couldn't a 3OG at least mitigate the worst effects of human evil without turning His creatures into automatons?
Any good parent, granted the powers of a 3OG, could design a better world than the one we have. In a good family, parents don't try to turn their children into automatons. They allow their children to grow intellectually and emotionally and eventually allow them to make their own decisions on progressively more consequential matters. But what would you think of the parent who allowed one child to murder another so that the children could express their free will?
The only other point that I would add is that as a Christian I believe that Christ did suffer and die on the cross and so is very aware and sympathetic when it comes to suffering. Again, with this in mind, I believe that things are the way they are for a good reason that is beyond human understanding, but at the end of time things will be made right.
Having been raised Roman Catholic I have little patience for the "beyond human understanding" response. The priests and nuns would engage their students in what appeared to be a rational discussion of the Faith, but whenever we asked a question they couldn't answer, they would say, "It's a mystery." That has always struck me as a cop out. Of course, we will never understand everything, but why stop trying?
I'm also not inclined to wait for death or the end of time to make things right. Just as "it's a mystery" shortcircuits intellectual progress, talk of the afterlife inhibits the struggle for justice in this life. I suspect this ideology helped keep generations of my Catholic ancestors satisfied with their lives as peasants in Europe. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't try to make things as right as we can now, given that none of us knows what the future will bring.
Edited by Stephen Push, : No reason given.
Edited by Stephen Push, : No reason given.
Edited by Stephen Push, : No reason given.
Edited by Stephen Push, : No reason given.
Edited by Stephen Push, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 2:12 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 9:05 PM Stephen Push has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 69 of 104 (591209)
11-12-2010 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
11-01-2010 12:45 PM


Re: Human Copouts
This video explains why there is such a pressure to conform to ideas that are popular, though not necessarily correct.
StephenPush writes:
Having been raised as Roman Catholic I have little patience for the "beyond human understanding" response. The priests and nuns would engage their students in what appeared to be a rational discussion of the Faith, but whenever we asked a question they couldn't answer, they would say, "It's a mystery." That has always struck me as a cop out. Of course, we will never understand everything, but why stop trying?
Why even expect conformity?
Edited by Phat, : add

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 11-01-2010 12:45 PM ringo has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 70 of 104 (591281)
11-12-2010 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Stephen Push
11-12-2010 11:51 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Stephen Push writes:
I focused on the issue of "natural evil" because it is relevant to biological evolution and is the more problematic question for those who believe in a 3OG (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God). But I don't buy the free will answer to moral evil either. Does the existence of free will require a 3OG to allow 6 million Jews to perish in the Holocaust? Included among those victims were infants who never reached an age at which they could exercise free will. Couldn't a 3OG at least mitigate the worst effects of human evil without turning His creatures into automatons?
Actually in human history the holocaust is nothing out of the ordinary. Human history is littered with such human atrocities and you can even look at more recent incidents of genocide than WW II. That is in no way to be interpreted in a way that minimizes the holocaust.
There is no human explanation as to why this level of depravity is allowed to happen. We went through the discussion about omnipotent previously. I suppose that the choice is then between a god who is benevolent but has limitations, or one whose omnipotence that extends beyond this universe but whose benevolence is limited. My conclusion is that we have a benevolent God who had limitations or reasons for creating the world the way that He did. Seeing as how the vast majority of people choose life as opposed to suicide at least indicates that joy exceeds suffering. That is about as far as I can go on that.
The only positive out of it is that at least much of the world is horrified by these things. We are repulsed and are amazed that this sort of thing can happen at all. It wasn't that long ago that it was what was expected. I recently went through the book of Maccabees. It was one continuous war after another with the goal of annihilating the whole tribe of the enemy. It does appear to me that bit by bit mankind is evolving spiritually.
I will repeat a quote I used a couple of posts back from Micah 6:8.
quote:
He has told you O man what is good; And what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
I believe that the Bible should be read as one meta-narrative but at the same time having said that I think it is reasonable to take this verse in the context of the whole of scripture and say that this one verse encapsulates the core of the Christian faith and in particular the gospel message of Jesus.
With that in mind I suggest that your posts in this thread put you far closer to the heart of God than the Christian who gives intellectual assent to the fact that Jesus died on the cross for us and loudly and proudly lets everyone know that he has his theology right and that everyone else is out to lunch. I also suggest that you are closer to the heart of God than the one who spends all his time doing good works and figures that God is now in his debt.
I am convinced that God wants us to be horrified by all suffering, even if it means rejecting Him. By your posts it seems to me that you are rejecting God out of a sense of feeling the pain of those who suffer, and despising the lack of mercy, justice, love and compassion that is far too often the norm in this world. I suppose a Christian can be defined as one who accepts the Creeds but I see the gospel message as saying that it is a truly loving heart that makes us right with God regardless of the faith that we profess. If I read your posts correctly it sounds to me like you are right in there with the good guys. If you read the teaching on the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 you can quickly see that being righteous in the sight of God isn’t about getting your theology right, but is about humbly loving kindness and doing justice.
Stephen Push writes:
Having been raised Roman Catholic I have little patience for the "beyond human understanding" response. The priests and nuns would engage their students in what appeared to be a rational discussion of the Faith, but whenever we asked a question they couldn't answer, they would say, "It's a mystery." That has always struck me as a cop out. Of course, we will never understand everything, but why stop trying?
I don’t know about the priests and the nuns but I spend a considerable amount of time trying understand more. Of course we should never stop trying but I suppose in the end there are some things that may never be clear to us. Having said that, it seems to be that through better knowledge of early languages and new sources of material giving us a more complete understanding of the scriptures, and with huge gains in scientific knowledge in all fields including biology, we are making progress in our understanding of the creator and his creation. We should never stop trying.
Stephen Push writes:
I'm also not inclined to wait for death or the end of time to make things right. Just as "it's a mystery" shortcircuits intellectual progress, talk of the afterlife inhibits the struggle for justice in this life. I suspect this ideology helped keep generations of my Catholic ancestors satisfied with their lives as peasants in Europe. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't try to make things as right as we can now, given that none of us knows what the future will bring.
The gospel message is all about trying to make things as right as we can now. That is true whether it be about digging wells in Africa, reducing pollution, electing politicians with integrity, doing medical or scientific research, or even writing a beautiful piece of music. As humans and God’s image bearers we are to bring the gospel message of love, peace, forgiveness, mercy, justice and hope to the world in anticipation of the end of time. Making things as right as we can now with humble loving hearts is what Christianity is about. It is about ceasing to be self-centred and becoming Christ centred in order that we may be world centred. (Definitely much harder than it sounds as only I know too well.)
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Stephen Push, posted 11-12-2010 11:51 AM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Stephen Push, posted 11-13-2010 1:31 AM GDR has replied

  
Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 71 of 104 (591311)
11-13-2010 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by GDR
11-12-2010 9:05 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Thank you for another thoughtful and heartfelt post. I think we share a similar outlook on many issues.
GDR writes:
My conclusion is that we have a benevolent God who had limitations or reasons for creating the world the way that He did.
If there is a God, I hope you are right about His character. Yours is a more appealing conception of God than the alternative.
The only positive out of it is that at least much of the world is horrified by these things. We are repulsed and are amazed that this sort of thing can happen at all. It wasn't that long ago that it was what was expected.
I agree that, at least in some parts of the world, there has been an increase in compassion.
I am convinced that God wants us to be horrified by all suffering, even if it means rejecting Him.
If that is true, He should be pleased by secular humanism. Some of the values of secular humanism, by the way, are derived from Christianity and other religious traditions.
Having said that, it seems to be that through better knowledge of early languages and new sources of material giving us a more complete understanding of the scriptures, and with huge gains in scientific knowledge in all fields including biology, we are making progress in our understanding of the creator and his creation.
Even though I don't share your belief in God, I do share your desire for greater knowledge about both religion and science.
The gospel message is all about trying to make things as right as we can now.
I think you're "right in there with the good guys" too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 9:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Otto Tellick, posted 11-13-2010 12:06 PM Stephen Push has replied
 Message 78 by GDR, posted 11-13-2010 7:05 PM Stephen Push has seen this message but not replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 72 of 104 (591368)
11-13-2010 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Stephen Push
11-13-2010 1:31 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Stephen Push writes:
Some of the values of secular humanism, by the way, are derived from Christianity and other religious traditions.
I think it would be more accurate to say that some aspects of Christianity and other religious traditions are consistent with the values of secular humanism. (Some religious traditions have more in common with secular humanism than others.)
My point is that the values of secular humanism stand on their own, being derived from premises and observations that do not depend on any religious belief. Human tendencies toward positive collaboration, mutual support, charity and altruism stem from our senses of enlightened self-interest, affection, compassion and empathy. To the extent that these senses are diminished or overwhelmed by ignorance, selfishness, fear or mental illness, the opposite tendencies are readily evident.
Both sides of the coin (the presence and absence of "good senses", and the resulting "good" and "bad" behaviors) are intrinsic to the human condition. This "duality" is logically entailed in the nature of a species that is comprised of sentient individuals whose survival depends crucially on sustaining social structures, at the expense of some normal individual impulses that must be suppressed for the sake of the group.
History, experience and basic logic show us repeatedly why the "good senses" and their resulting behaviors are preferable (because they extend and improve the quality of survival for the group or species as a whole), and why behaviors stemming from ignorance, selfishness, fear or mental illness are "bad" (because their "success" is ultimately not beneficial in a broader scope, or they are patently dysfunctional).
There is no need to invoke supernatural causation, let alone supernatural guidance, for any of this. It's simply "natural".
Edited by Otto Tellick, : amended 2nd & 4th paragraphs to include mention of mental illness

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Stephen Push, posted 11-13-2010 1:31 AM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Stephen Push, posted 11-13-2010 3:30 PM Otto Tellick has not replied
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 11-13-2010 6:16 PM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


(1)
Message 73 of 104 (591402)
11-13-2010 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by GDR
11-02-2010 3:26 AM


GDR writes:
I guess that we can use the term omnipotence, but from a human perspective I'm not sure it has a great deal of meaning.
In my view, that is the crux of any discussion involving the terms "omnipotence" and "omniscience". These terms end up being meaningless, and despite their frequent usage, they are in fact useless.
The existence of these terms is a matter of basic linguistic structure, involving the common mechanisms of grammatical "quantification" (all, most, some, any, none, etc), which also relates to (and interacts in curious ways with) grammatical negation.
These aspects of grammar, which are found in all human languages, work with normal rules of syntax and word formation, allowing people to express questions and statements about things that are not known to exist, or clearly don't exist, or simply cannot exist. Such expressions are grammatically well formed and can be understood, but they are "coherent" only in the sense that commonly known words are used in accordance with commonly known rules of grammar.
As soon as we talk about infinite power it ceases to be something that we can comprehend.
Actually, it ceases to be something that makes any sense at all. In effect, once you posit the existence of an omnipotent entity, you might as well assert that it can create invisible colors, married bachelors, male wives (mothers nieces aunts sisters daughters), female husbands (fathers nephews uncles brothers sons), and so on.
Any other assertions about such an entity will be equally meaningful and useful (which is to say, not at all meaningful or useful).
Assertions about virgin birth and life after death are in the same vein. The difference here, it seems, is that given the linguistic capacity to express these notions, lots of people feel compelled to assign meanings to them, despite the fact that no one has any grounds to substantiate them.
(Actually, some have tried to substantiate one sort of "life after death" by documenting "cases indicative of reincarnation"; but the Islamo-Christian notion of afterlife is utterly beyond substantiation, "evidence" of "saintly interventions" notwithstanding.)
Edited by Otto Tellick, : removed reference to "Judeo-" notion of life after death -- it's not clear to me that the O.T. ever expressed such a notion.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by GDR, posted 11-02-2010 3:26 AM GDR has not replied

  
Stephen Push
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 140
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 74 of 104 (591404)
11-13-2010 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Otto Tellick
11-13-2010 12:06 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Otto Tellick writes:
I think it would be more accurate to say that some aspects of Christianity and other religious traditions are consistent with the values of secular humanism. (Some religious traditions have more in common with secular humanism than others.)
I think it goes both ways. Religious traditions have influenced secular humanism and vice versa. For instance, I believe that the tendency in recent history to extend moral respect to those outside one's own group (tribe, nation, etc.) was influenced by the Christian idea that all people are God's children.
Both sides of the coin (the presence and absence of "good senses", and the resulting "good" and "bad" behaviors) are intrinsic to the human condition. This "duality" is logically entailed in the nature of a species that is comprised of sentient individuals whose survival depends crucially on sustaining social structures, at the expense of some normal individual impulses that must be suppressed for the sake of the group.
A moral sense in intrinsic to the human condition, but specific moral codes are the result of cultural evolution.
History, experience and basic logic show us repeatedly why the "good senses" and their resulting behaviors are preferable (because they extend and improve the quality of survival for the group or species as a whole), and why behaviors based on ignorance, selfishness and fear are "bad" (because their "success" is ultimately not beneficial in a broader scope).
Research shows that moral behavior is not as rational as you seem to imply. Moral decisions often are made emotionally, with reason providing post hoc rationalization of what we are inclined to do without conscious reflection.
There is no need to invoke supernatural causation, let alone supernatural guidance, for any of this. It's simply "natural".
I am not invoking supernatural causation. Religion is a natural phenomenon of human behavior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Otto Tellick, posted 11-13-2010 12:06 PM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 75 of 104 (591405)
11-13-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by GDR
11-12-2010 11:09 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Here is a quote from the the Bible for you. It is Micah 6:8
He has told you O man what is good; And what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
What God wants from all of us is to want the best for everyone, treat everyone fairly, and not to think to highly of ourselves. God is much more concerned about the condition of our hearts than He is our theology.
you shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath...
So if jesus is not his son, or god incarnate then you have a slight problem whit the 2nd commandment

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 11:09 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by GDR, posted 11-13-2010 7:02 PM frako has not replied

  
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