I think I indicated in general terms where and what I thought the lessons were. Your cites aren't anywhere close. I agree that some portions of Job are strictly religious lessons that won't speak to atheists. Also, if instead of being merely atheistic, you are actively hostile, Job will probably bog you down. It is pretty tough reading.
Based on the little I've seen here I would not recommend Job to you. As for the vulgarity, I'm a sailor. I didn't even notice it.
I think I indicated in general terms where and what I thought the lessons were. Your cites aren't anywhere close. I agree that some portions of Job are strictly religious lessons that won't speak to atheists.
Perhaps I missed that. You made reference to Job's relationship with his friends. The lesson I see there is that you should stick to your guns and not be swayed. That your loyalty belongs to God no matter what. Help me out. Which parts of Job would you consider universally wise?
Also, if instead of being merely atheistic, you are actively hostile, Job will probably bog you down. It is pretty tough reading.
Based on the little I've seen here I would not recommend Job to you. As for the vulgarity, I'm a sailor. I didn't even notice it.
I thought that you took the vulgarity as a sign that I was upset and hostile. This is not so.
Also, are you wafting slights in my direction? Is the wisdom of Job beyond my uninspired comprehension?
I cited Job 28:28 as something that might be considered wise. My reaction to things that I fear is to pay very close attention to them. To learn about and understand them. To change them into something that I do not fear. The phrase "...and to depart from evil [is] understanding." in the same verse seems to support this interpretation.
From the OP;
If those with more biblical knowledge than I were to try and pinpoint the parts of the bible that they think stand out as significant regardless of ones belief which parts would they direct me to? And why?
Is wisdom relative and subjective? Do you have to be in the club to get it?
Also, are you wafting slights in my direction? Is the wisdom of Job beyond my uninspired comprehension?
No slights were intended. I certainly was not commenting on your intelligence. You've certainly picked out the thrust of the passages I referred to. But if you desire to leave God out of things to extract the wisdom, I think you have to make a more allegorical interpretation. For example, what principles might one substitute for faith in God and still have essentially the same story?
Let's make no mistake here. I believe that recommending Bible verses even for secular purposes serves a proselytizing function. I wouldn't recommend Job to you as a starting point because you are already turned off by it.
quote: thought that you took the vulgarity as a sign that I was upset and hostile.
No. What I took as hostility was your complaints about how God was portrayed in Job. In my opinion, that material is irrelevant to the topic. Deleting the f-bomb from your post doesn't change the meaning at all.
quote:The literal meaning of 'The Grasshopper and the Ant' is that grasshoppers are lazy but ants are industrious.
No it isn't. It's understood as a fable, it has nothing to do with grasshoppers or ants. It's used to teach the virtues of hard work.
quote:That's correct. Do you know any people like Sampson? Do you know anyone with different gifts than Sampson whose failings gets him/her into trouble.
Most people do, but no teaching is presented on how to prevent or get out of the situation. It's more of a hero legend than a story for teaching. It could be used as an example of what not to do or the need for self control, but I don't see a clear lesson from the story itself.
quote:And aren't the religious meanings besides the point here. I agree that for all of the passages that I've cited, the religious meanings of the scriptures are more important than the secular ones. So what?
I'm asking you and have asked you before what the secular ones are! Good grief it's like pulling teeth. This is a discussion board.
The exchange between you and NoNukes reminded me of this, so even though it has nothing to do with the topic, I thought I'd share it.
I like the way Rosselson subtly inverts the moral, making the ant seem like a bit of a git, living a life devoid of joy and not much worth saving.
Most people do, but no teaching is presented on how to prevent or get out of the situation. It's more of a hero legend than a story for teaching. It could be used as an example of what not to do or the need for self control, but I don't see a clear lesson from the story itself.
Don't trust women?
Hooray for the amazing sagacity of the Bible. I have to say, it's not what I would choose as an example of timeless wisdom. I agree with you though; this is not so much a parable, more a hero fable.
No it isn't. It's understood as a fable, it has nothing to do with grasshoppers or ants. It's used to teach the virtues of hard work
Exactly. So why read Samson so literally? It isn't necessarily just about womanizing and stupidity.
Most people do, but no teaching is presented on how to prevent or get out of the situation.
Really? I think the way out is clear.
I don't believe Sampson was a dolt. Sampson had everyone baffled with his obscure riddle but his weakness for exotic women and his misplaced trust rather than his stupidity caused him to give the answer away. I think Sampson gets a bad rap because everyone who reads the story feels that they'd never fall for the same ploys Sampson falls for.
Sampson did not escape. But the way out for you is to heed the warning so you don't end up like Sampson.
quote:I'm asking you and have asked you before what the secular ones are! Good grief it's like pulling teeth. This is a discussion board.
For example, what principles might one substitute for faith in God and still have essentially the same story?
Optimism or perseverance? Looking on the bright side of life?
No. What I took as hostility was your complaints about how God was portrayed in Job. In my opinion, that material is irrelevant to the topic.
I would agree that God is irrelevant to the topic of wisdom in the bible. In fact I would say that one has to disregard the God concept to clearly see the wisdom in the bible. God is the 'placeholder' word for the unknown.
The ten commandments are a fine description of sustainable moral behaviour. I would say that having them chizelled out by God is simply a control mechanism. An appeal to fear.
For many years I was completely blind to the wisdom of the bible because I couldn't get past the ludicrous notion of God. I threw out the baby with the bath water. When I replaced the God concept with the idea of the universe or 'the way things are', I was able to read the bible in whole new light and the wisdom and lessons of history became suddenly sharp and sensible.
The ten commandments are a fine description of sustainable moral behaviour. I would say that having them chizelled out by God is simply a control mechanism.
Except that half of the ten make no sense if God is not real.
Optimism or perseverance? Looking on the bright side of life?
Or pretty much any positive principle that you might refuse to compromise under adversity and pressure from your wife and from your peers.
When I replaced the God concept with the idea of the universe or 'the way things are', I was able to read the bible in whole new light and the wisdom and lessons of history became suddenly sharp and sensible.
Interesting. In which Bible passages do you find wisdom? I wouldn't be surprised if you can cite better examples than I have.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : Address second part of Df's post
Except that half of the ten make no sense if God is not real.
Thats right, they dont make any sense if God is some dude with a long white beard and a big ego on his throne. It is the personification of God that causes the problem. Take God to mean the nature and laws of the universe. The whole idea of 'fearing the Lord thy God' is an instruction to seek to understand the nature of the things which surround us.
quote:'I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. '
By being smart and resourceful and by paying attention to the winds that sometimes blow all the water to the other end of the lake so you can walk across in a pinch.
quote:'Thou shalt have no other gods before me.'
Pay attention to what the laws of nature say. It is the only way.
quote:'...for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;'
The consequences of ignorance are long lasting.
quote:'And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.'
The consequences of gaining empirical knowledge are long lasting and wide spread.
quote:'Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.'
I like the way Rosselson subtly inverts the moral, making the ant seem like a bit of a git, living a life devoid of joy and not much worth saving.
The ant failed to heed Jesus' advice:
quote:Mat 6:19-21 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
He also failed to love his neighbour as himself.
"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
quote:'I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. '
By being smart and resourceful and by paying attention to the winds that sometimes blow all the water to the other end of the lake so you can walk across in a pinch.
quote:
'Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.'
Here are a few other verses that may support the idea without so much straining. I did a blue letter bible search for 'wisdom' and these are a few of the returns. I really like the first one.
quote:Pro 4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom:
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding;
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: [he is] a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
Pro 3:13 Happy [is] the man [that] findeth wisdom, and the man [that] getteth understanding.
Pro 7:4 Say unto wisdom, Thou [art] my sister; and call understanding [thy] kinswoman:
Pro 8:11 For wisdom [is] better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Ecc 2:13 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
Ecc 2:26 For [God] giveth to a man that [is] good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to [him that is] good before God. This also [is] vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecc 7:12 For wisdom [is] a defence, [and] money [is] a defence: but the excellency of knowledge [is, that] wisdom giveth life to them that have it.
Isa 33:6 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, [and] strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD [is] his treasure.
ABE; Maybe a side observation would be that the bible opposes science no more than science opposes the bible. This of course requires that one reads the bible with their eyes open.
The thread isn't about how many times the word wisdom is used in the Bible. It is about verses or stories that actually teach us and hopefully make us wiser. It has nothing to do with science.
I really didn't think this topic was going to be so difficult.
The thread isn't about how many times the word wisdom is used in the Bible. It is about verses or stories that actually teach us and hopefully make us wiser. It has nothing to do with science.
I said
I would agree that God is irrelevant to the topic of wisdom in the bible. In fact I would say that one has to disregard the God concept to clearly see the wisdom in the bible.
The bible reads completely differently without the precept of a sentient God. By replacing the God concept with the concept of ‘natural world’ or ‘laws of nature’ or ‘way of the universe’ one is able to see wisdom that is otherwise concealed. The cited verses support the idea that ‘fearing the Lord’ leads to understanding the way of things. Which has everything to do with science.
I would also say that every one of the cited verses has something to offer on its own. [abe] But the meaning changes along with your concept of God.
As an atheist I find it curious how much wisdom the bible contains when viewed with a rational eye.
I really didn't think this topic was going to be so difficult.
I have to say, it's not what I would choose as an example of timeless wisdom. I agree with you though; this is not so much a parable, more a hero fable.
™ Version 4.2
(1)
