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Author Topic:   Is Evolution the Work of Satan?
frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 57 of 104 (591108)
11-11-2010 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by GDR
11-11-2010 5:53 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
It seems to me that it only makes sense if there is something other than just socialization and natural selection involved that leads us to our altruistic views. If that is the case, which of course I do, then it seems reasonable to conclude that whatever or whoever is behind that sense of altruism would hold at least the same level of compassion and caring that we do.
If again that is the case, then I believe that it is sensible to assume that the world is the way it is for reasons that are beyond our understanding, and that we can actually have trust and confidence that in the end things will be made right and that we have a benevolent Creator. I see God as being all powerful from my vantage point as a human in our 4 dimensional universe, but beyond that I have no vantage point on which to base such a term.
Atcualy you do not, it is alyo possible that god is an evil sadistic bastard and gave us that altruistic view so he can hurt us too when he hurts some one else. And you whorship this bastard !!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 11-11-2010 5:53 PM GDR has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 64 of 104 (591152)
11-12-2010 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
11-12-2010 2:12 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
I underdstood that which is why I was surprised that you raised the point. I have explained my understanding of the fact that we have natural disasters even though I worship a benevolent creator in earlier posts in this thread.
The only other point that I would add is that as a Christian I believe that Christ did suffer and die on the cross and so is very aware and sympathetic when it comes to suffering. Again, with this in mind, I believe that things are the way they are for a good reason that is beyond human understanding, but at the end of time things will be made right.
Im gonna pull a creo argument out of my sleave. What if you are wrong ? And the Jews are right then you will go to hell for worsheping a false idol.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 2:12 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 11-12-2010 9:32 AM frako has not replied
 Message 67 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 11:09 AM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 75 of 104 (591405)
11-13-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by GDR
11-12-2010 11:09 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Here is a quote from the the Bible for you. It is Micah 6:8
He has told you O man what is good; And what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
What God wants from all of us is to want the best for everyone, treat everyone fairly, and not to think to highly of ourselves. God is much more concerned about the condition of our hearts than He is our theology.
you shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath...
So if jesus is not his son, or god incarnate then you have a slight problem whit the 2nd commandment

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by GDR, posted 11-12-2010 11:09 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by GDR, posted 11-13-2010 7:02 PM frako has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 80 of 104 (591474)
11-14-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Stephen Push
11-14-2010 8:48 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
There are probably some absolutes built in by evolution. All cultures have a prohibition against murder, although each culture determines what consitutes justifiable homicide. All cultures have a prohibition against incest, but each culture determines how distantly related a couple must be to avoid incest.
Sorry to disappoint you.
The Egyptian faraos often took their sisters as brides and had children whit them.
The reason incest is illegal in most countries now it is because the chance of the child being bourne normal is slim.
The romans often watched gladiators kill one another, and the victor was praised. In Albania they still practice blood vengance even if it is now illegal, i kill your son you kill my son, i stab you you stab me back...
What about the people who followed Hitler? In many cases, I think they knew they were wrong. Having a normal conscience doesn't guarantee that we will always follow it. Many Germans to this day impose upon themselves a heavy burden of guilt and shame about the Holocaust.
And the KKK members go to bead whit shame for being racial.
And what about cultural practices, such as slavery, that were acceptable once but widely abhorred now? Our moral sense first evolved when we lived in small bands or tribes. In those days, our moral concern would have generally been limited to members of our own group. Regardless of whether it started with Christianity, as I believe, we have seen over the last few centuries a trend of widening our circle of moral concern to other groups of people and even to animals.
Or circle of morals has widend though no tanks to religion, it widend after we got our first rights and we wanted more and when those rights are in place long enough it is not only illegal to beat your wife whit a stick that is not wider than your thumb but it is also immoral. Morals change whit society there is no internal compass bourne in us all. We make that compass whit the help of those around us.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Stephen Push, posted 11-14-2010 8:48 AM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Stephen Push, posted 11-15-2010 8:03 AM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 84 of 104 (591642)
11-15-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Stephen Push
11-15-2010 8:03 AM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
1) Many religious and philosophical traditions adhere to something similar to the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
That is the message of many religions yes. Though few individuals follow that message.And many is not all religions, vastal virgins where bred only to be sacareficed to one god or the other does that look like do on to others as you would have others do on to you, do you think those priests that cut those girls harts out would want the same done to them. Or the Aztec priests would they cut their own harts out to make the sun shine tommorow.
The motto of moste religions is do on to the ones the same as you, as you would want them to do on to you, and do what you want to anyone different.
2) People in different cultures show similar biases when asked about moral dilemmas.
Like the study when 2 storries where compared the one from the bible when a bloke killes every living thing in a city cause he is orderd by god, and a nother storry where the same thing happens only no word from the hebrew god.
Moste anwser the bloke that got the order from the hebrew god did the right thing and the other one was vile and evil.
3) Some forms of moral behavior, such as fairness, are seen in young children.
Like when you haveto teach them how to share toys, not to call each other names, that they are not the boss of the house and that the world does not revolve arround them. Those forms?
4) Incipient forms of moral behavior, such as inequity aversion, are seen in non-human primates.
The chimpanzie test when 2 chimps work together and they both get food they gladly work together, when only one bowl of food is availible the alpha chimp takes it and the non alpha chimp does not help the second time cause he knows he will not get any food as long as he is arround. Those moral forms?
But most people behave morally most of the time, even when punishment is unlikely.
Crime of opertunity is usualy comitted by previusly uncriminal people.
Do you believe that every child is a blank slate -- equally likely to become an Albert Schweitzer, an Adolph Hitler, or a completely amoral adult -- depending on the environment?
Almost a blank slate there are some genetic diferances that could help him go one way or the other though mostly they are molded by the environment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Stephen Push, posted 11-15-2010 8:03 AM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Stephen Push, posted 11-15-2010 7:07 PM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 87 of 104 (591758)
11-15-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Stephen Push
11-15-2010 7:07 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
I forgot how it is called will do my best to find it can you tell me the name of the bloke from the bible that was orderd by god to kill everyone in a city

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Stephen Push, posted 11-15-2010 7:07 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phage0070, posted 11-15-2010 9:45 PM frako has replied
 Message 93 by Stephen Push, posted 11-16-2010 3:18 PM frako has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 92 of 104 (591839)
11-16-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phage0070
11-15-2010 9:45 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Damm still cant find it it was a long time ago when i saw it or read it. The guy from the bible starts whit a J i think.
As i remeber it was a survey in a Jewish school, they where asked questions and where given anwsers like,totally morally wrong, morally wrong, morally right, and totally morally right. When the question of the actions from the guy in the bible came most anwsered morally right, and totally morally right, when the chinese guy that did the same thing as the guy in the bible came up, most anwsered morally wrong, or totally morally wrong. It showed that our morals are biast to our comunity. Ill keep looking for it though it is hard cause i do not know either the chinese guys name, or the ones from the bible, i forgot where i saw/read the study or for what i was searching for when i found it the first time. For some reason i also think that i could have seen it on a discovery channel.

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frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 94 of 104 (591876)
11-16-2010 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Stephen Push
11-16-2010 3:18 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
In 1966, the Israeli psychologist Georges Tamarin presented, to 1,066 schoolchildren ages 8-14, the Biblical story of Joshua's battle in Jericho:
"Then they utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and asses, with the edge of the sword... And they burned the city with fire, and all within it; only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD."
After being presented with the Joshua story, the children were asked:
"Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not?"
66% of the children approved, 8% partially disapproved, and 26% totally disapproved of Joshua's actions.
A control group of 168 children was presented with an isomorphic story about "General Lin" and a "Chinese Kingdom 3,000 years ago". 7% of this group approved, 18% partially disapproved, and 75% completely disapproved of General Lin.
Though i did not initialy find it here
The Moral Void - LessWrong
The Science of Good and Evil: Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and ... - Michael Shermer - Google Books
more on the subject

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Stephen Push, posted 11-16-2010 3:18 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Stephen Push, posted 11-20-2010 9:06 AM frako has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(2)
Message 102 of 104 (592521)
11-20-2010 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by GDR
11-20-2010 2:48 PM


Re: Powerful, Wise & Benevolent God?
Stephen Push writes:
But I would submit that in the modern world we will all be better off if we widen our circle of moral concern so that our natural tendency for within-group coopertion applies to the whole human race.
Amen!!
Yes it is time to say condoms are not a sin but a tool to stop aids from spreding.
It is time that Abortion whitin the first 3 monts is good if the child that would be borne has no real chance of having a quality life, if the child was spawned by rape, by minors .....
It is time to say gay people are people too let them get married.
It is time to say muslims, christians, scientists, atheists, baphtists... are all people too lets not blow them up
.....
I know it is off topic but it had to be said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by GDR, posted 11-20-2010 2:48 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Stephen Push, posted 11-20-2010 6:00 PM frako has not replied
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