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Author Topic:   Living According to Christ: Is it Reasonable?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 122 (592105)
11-18-2010 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
11-18-2010 4:41 PM


Re: Apocalyptic Jesus?
First, yes, the evidence shows that the early Christians were an apocalyptic cult that did expect an end, but not "the end of the world" type but rather a revolution.
Yes, of course. If it appeared I was interpreting the writings to indicate a belief in an actual end, then that was my error of poor explanation. As the quote by Paul shows, the 'end' was not an 'end of the world' per se, but an end of the way things are, a 'passing away' of the 'form of this world' (I Cor. 7:31).
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 11-18-2010 4:41 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 11-21-2010 1:08 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 122 (592671)
11-21-2010 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jon
11-18-2010 5:14 PM


Re: Apocalyptic Jesus?
quote:
When Jesus says to 'sell what you have, and give to the poor', and 'do not worry about tomorrow', how do you take his message?
Obviously I don't take all literally. I agree with jars assessment.
As far as not worrying about tomorrow, I fear I have abused and contorted that one. I literally have nothing saved for retirement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jon, posted 11-18-2010 5:14 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 18 of 122 (592771)
11-21-2010 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
11-15-2010 3:33 PM


Re: 2000 Years; 2000 Differences
Jon writes:
The New Testament presents a lot of teachings telling people how to live and how to behave. These how to live teachings often ask that individuals disregard their earthly wealth and worries to live a life in devotion of Christ and God. But, of course, Jesus preached, and Paul believed, that the world was soon to end. And it appears that many of Jesus', and Paul's, how to live teachings seem specifically tied to this belief:
Just a couple of quick thoughts on this. Much of the discussion in the gospels that might be construed as being about end times is really political. Jesus essentially said that if the Jews keep trying to beat the Romans militarily, the Romans will do what they always did. What he prophesied came true with the destruction of Jerusalem and more in the war of 70AD.
His message was that he, Jesus the Messiah, was building a new kingdom. It would be a kingdom without borders made up of those who would take his message of love, justice, truth, mercy, forgiveness etc to the world. Basically he said that the way to defeat the Romans was to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. It kind worked 300 years or so later, as Rome, at least in name became a Christian empire.
He did occasionally talk about end times such as in Matthew 25 where He talked about the righteous as being the ones that clothed him when he was naked, fed him when he was hungry and visited him when he was in prison and finished up saying that when you do those things for those who need it we are doing it for him.
The Epistles are more about the spreading and implementation of the kingdom that Christ established through His life death and resurrection. I read the message that the end times started at that point and that we still live in them today, but no one knows when God's new creation, or re-creation if you like, will finally be accomplished.
With that in mind it's probably best to figure that there is probably a few million years to go, so we should all be busy loving our neighbour, feeding the hungry, etc no matter where we find them. Also with that in mind we better take care of our earthly home.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 11-15-2010 3:33 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 11-22-2010 9:03 AM GDR has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 122 (592809)
11-22-2010 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
11-21-2010 8:33 PM


Re: 2000 Years; 2000 Differences
Just a couple of quick thoughts on this. Much of the discussion in the gospels that might be construed as being about end times is really political. Jesus essentially said that if the Jews keep trying to beat the Romans militarily, the Romans will do what they always did. What he prophesied came true with the destruction of Jerusalem and more in the war of 70AD.
His message was that he, Jesus the Messiah, was building a new kingdom. It would be a kingdom without borders made up of those who would take his message of love, justice, truth, mercy, forgiveness etc to the world. Basically he said that the way to defeat the Romans was to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. It kind worked 300 years or so later, as Rome, at least in name became a Christian empire.
He did occasionally talk about end times such as in Matthew 25 where He talked about the righteous as being the ones that clothed him when he was naked, fed him when he was hungry and visited him when he was in prison and finished up saying that when you do those things for those who need it we are doing it for him.
The Epistles are more about the spreading and implementation of the kingdom that Christ established through His life death and resurrection. I read the message that the end times started at that point and that we still live in them today, but no one knows when God's new creation, or re-creation if you like, will finally be accomplished.
I am wondering if you'd be able to provide any chapter-verse citations that you believe evidence these claims.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 11-21-2010 8:33 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 11-22-2010 9:40 PM Jon has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 20 of 122 (592937)
11-22-2010 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
11-22-2010 9:03 AM


Re: 2000 Years; 2000 Differences
Jon writes:
I am wondering if you'd be able to provide any chapter-verse citations that you believe evidence these claims.
It is hard to cherry pick verses from the Bible but I’ll see what I can do. I believe that the Bible should be read as one great story or meta-narrative so that when an individual verse is read it can be seen in the context of the big picture.
GDR writes:
Just a couple of quick thoughts on this. Much of the discussion in the gospels that might be construed as being about end times is really political. Jesus essentially said that if the Jews keep trying to beat the Romans militarily, the Romans will do what they always did. What he prophesied came true with the destruction of Jerusalem and more in the war of 70AD.
Here is maybe the most obvious example from Luke 21.
quote:
20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
29 He told them this parable: Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
32 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Vs. 20 — 24 is clear and the obvious armies that He would be referring to are the Romans. 25-26 is typical Jewish language for the Earth being in turmoil. 27-28 refers back to Daniel 7.
quote:
13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
A first century Jew would see the prophesy of Daniel 7 being fulfilled. With the war of 70 AD those that had advocated for the overthrow of the Romans by military means were gone and Christ’s message of loving your enemy was vindicated.
GDR writes:
His message was that he, Jesus the Messiah, was building a new kingdom. It would be a kingdom without borders made up of those who would take his message of love, justice, truth, mercy, forgiveness etc to the world. Basically he said that the way to defeat the Romans was to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. It kind worked 300 years or so later, as Rome, at least in name became a Christian empire.
From Mark 1
quote:
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 The time has come, he said. The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!
In that Jesus is saying that the kingdom of God has been or is being established. Incidentally in the book of Matthew he uses the term Kingdom of Heaven as opposed to Kingdom of God which is understood to be the same thing.
This is from 1st Corinthians
quote:
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
This is clear that the kingdom as established by Christ will be given to the father at the end of time, whenever that might be.
He made it very clear throughout His teaching that what he desired of His followers was a loving heart. This is clear in the Beatitudes and in the parables.
Paul says this in Romans 14
quote:
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
GDR writes:
He did occasionally talk about end times such as in Matthew 25 where He talked about the righteous as being the ones that clothed him when he was naked, fed him when he was hungry and visited him when he was in prison and finished up saying that when you do those things for those who need it we are doing it for him.
This in my view is one of the few times that Christ’s teaching were about end times.
GDR writes:
The Epistles are more about the spreading and implementation of the kingdom that Christ established through His life death and resurrection. I read the message that the end times started at that point and that we still live in them today, but no one knows when God's new creation, or re-creation if you like, will finally be accomplished.
`
In Colossians 4:11 Paul refers to others as fellow workers for the Kingdom of God. So at the end of all this I go back to my favourite verse which is Micah 6:8 which I is for all mankind.
He has told you, O man what is good; And what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.
This then goes back to the original question of "Is it reasonable to live according to Christ". My answer is yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 11-22-2010 9:03 AM Jon has not replied

Aurora
Junior Member (Idle past 4696 days)
Posts: 13
From: India
Joined: 12-09-2010


Message 21 of 122 (597249)
12-20-2010 3:05 PM


Early teachings not compatible with modern Christian lifestyle
Reading the Bible in my language and in English my understanding is that, as Jesus speaks about it, the apostles and early Christians expect the second coming of Christ to happen soon. Many of the teachings also seems to be guided by this expectation. Like their predecessors through the ages many Christians even today still belief the second coming to take place soon. I felt that strictly following early teachings of Christianity is not compatible with today's world. Instead of following these teachings many Christians try to interpret the Bible to fit their modern Christian lifestyle. But again, they said this flexibility shows the glory of Christianity.

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 22 of 122 (597256)
12-20-2010 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Aurora
12-20-2010 3:05 PM


Re: Early teachings not compatible with modern Christian lifestyle
Christians expect the second coming of Christ to happen soon
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHH!!!!!
Well the second coming has been expected to happen soon by Christians for the past 2000 years. Jesus expected it to happen whiting a lifetime. That whole s speech he made some of you will LIVE to see the kingdom of god on earth or some BS like that.
And people have been scammed by this second coming for a long time one guy made me laugh he predicted that the rapture would happen somewhere in 1880 and he was selling stuff like robes for the rapture when that day came and went nobody got raptured and he made loads of money a few years later he pulled the same scam again, and im not sure but i think he did it 3 times more and he always had an audience of guilable Christians standing in line to buy his rapture clothes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Aurora, posted 12-20-2010 3:05 PM Aurora has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 23 of 122 (603244)
02-03-2011 2:07 PM


If I understand the OP the question is is living according to Christ reasonable today.
I think that the New Testament intended that the passage of time would not effect the essentials of living in the new covenant. Christ declared that He would be with the disciples "all the days, even to the consummation of the age" (Matt. 28:20) .
He is declared to be the same "yesterday and today, [yes], even forever." (Heb. 13:8) . Indeed, the faith of Christ needs to be torture tested (no pun intended) by various circumstances. That the grace of Christ was livable in any kind of adverse situation or circumstances seems to be a goal of God allowing so much time to pass before His second coming.
This certainly does not mean things will be easy for Christians. But Christ said that the gates of Hades would not prevail against the church. They certainly have and will continue to try to prevail. Nothing in His teaching indicates to me that Christ forsaw that obedience should peter out (no pun intended).
He did put the matter as a kind of open ended question though:
"When the Son of man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" But men ought to always pray and not lose heart (See Luke 18:1-8) .
Paul, at the end of the eight chapter of his Roman letter expresses his expectation that nothing will overcome the believers in Christ - even "things present or things to come".
I conclude we can live the Christian life today by the grace of Christ.

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 02-03-2011 2:40 PM jaywill has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 122 (603262)
02-03-2011 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jaywill
02-03-2011 2:07 PM


The Messenger vs. the Message
I think that the New Testament intended that the passage of time would not effect the essentials of living in the new covenant. Christ declared that He would be with the disciples "all the days, even to the consummation of the age" (Matt. 28:20) .
How does that support the notion of Jesus' message being relevant today?
He is declared to be the same "yesterday and today, [yes], even forever." (Heb. 13:8) .
What does Jesus' eternalness have to do with the continued relevancy of his message?
Nothing in His teaching indicates to me that Christ forsaw that obedience should peter out (no pun intended).
Sure; but that still doesn't address the relevancy of his instructions in the modern era.
I conclude we can live the Christian life today by the grace of Christ.
Okay. How? How do his teachings still have relevancy? What can we do today that is still inline with the teachings of Jesus?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2011 2:07 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2011 3:50 PM Jon has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 25 of 122 (603284)
02-03-2011 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
02-03-2011 2:40 PM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
quote:
How does that support the notion of Jesus' message being relevant today?
The divine agape Love is relevant today. Overcoming sin is relevant today. Expressing the highest level of morality is relevant today.
I can give you personal examples from my own life how living by the grace of Christ has been relevant today.
Living unto God's kingdom is relevant in any age.
quote:
What does Jesus' eternalness have to do with the continued relevancy of his message?
It has been 2,000 years and no one has superceeded Jesus Christ as an example of the purest teaching and highest morality on earth. And since no one can live that way without His indwelling presence as the Holy Spirit, His being the same yesterday, today, and forever makes Him completely relevant.
quote:
Sure; but that still doesn't address the relevancy of his instructions in the modern era.
There are millions in China who find His instructions relevant. There are growing numbers in South America and in Africa who share their experience. In Europe Atheism is on the rise. But everywhere else that I know, living with the available Jesus Christ is relevant in modern times. That would include a good number in Europe also where Atheism is on the rise.
In Israel the Christian faith is growing, yet not in a sensational way. These Jews find abiding in Christ and He in them relevant to thier modern times.
In America many are also discovering living in the grace of Christ is relevant to a modern age.
Even in the Arab world God seems to be going out of His way to impart unusual ways of bringing truth seeking Arabs into the Christian faith. Apparently they find Jesus' teachings to be relevant to their modern situation.
All these peoples have their daily battles. They may not all have the same battles. But they all have their adverse circumstances and inward human failities to overcome.
Jesus as the resurrected and available living Lord is relevant.
And the need for reconciliation and forgiveness from God is always relevant on this side of eternity. Christ is relevant to that forgiveness from God and between human and human.
There are many people I have not been able to truly forgive except in the power of the grace of Jesus Christ.
quote:
Okay. How? How do his teachings still have relevancy? What can we do today that is still inline with the teachings of Jesus?
He is available as the Holy Spirit. That is the [B]"life giving Spirit" [B] The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) We can be redeemed by believing into Christ so that Christ the life giving Holy Spirit might abide in us.
He told His disciples "Abide in Me and I in you" . We can open up our hearts and receive Christ and learn to abide in Him as a sphere and a realm. As a result in our abiding in Him He will spontaneously abide in us.
This mutual abiding brings God into us and us into God, We begin to react not in our sinful selves but in the living Christ within.
In so doing we cooperate with God's eternal purpose to have sons of God for His expression and our enjoyment.
Christ is more relevant today than ever. Some of the social issues are so very complex and difficult. Some of us need to handle them with the gloves of Jesus Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 02-03-2011 2:40 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 02-03-2011 4:31 PM jaywill has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 122 (603296)
02-03-2011 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jaywill
02-03-2011 3:50 PM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
I listed some very specific teachings in Message 1, Message 8, and Message 12:
quote:
Matt. 5:33—48 (NRSV):
'Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord." But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.
'You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.
'You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy." But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
quote:
Matt. 6:19—21, 25—34 (NRSV):
'Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
...
'Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe youyou of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, "What will we eat?" or "What will we drink?" or "What will we wear?" For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
'So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today.
quote:
Mark 10:21—28 (NRSV):
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, 'You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.' When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, 'How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!' And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, 'Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.' They were greatly astounded and said to one another, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.'
Peter began to say to him, 'Look, we have left everything and followed you.' Jesus said, 'Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this agehouses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutionsand in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.'
quote:
I Cor. 7:25—31 (NRSV):
Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.
quote:
Luke 14:26 (NRSV):
Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.
quote:
Matt. 10:37 (NRSV):
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; ...
quote:
Mark 9:1 (NRSV):
And he said to them 'Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.'
quote:
Mark 13:24—31 (NRSV):
'But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see "the Son of Man coming in clouds" with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
quote:
I Cor. 7:25—31 (NRSV):
Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.
quote:
Matt. 16:28 (NRSV):
Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
quote:
I Thes. 4:15—5:11 (NRSV):
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When they say, 'There is peace and security', then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labour pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! But you, beloved, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. So then, let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober; for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.
quote:
Matt. 24:4—34 (NRSV):
Jesus answered them, 'Beware that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, "I am the Messiah!" and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.
'Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But anyone who endures to the end will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.
'So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; someone on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; someone in the field must not turn back to get a coat. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, "Look! Here is the Messiah!" or "There he is!"do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, "Look! He is in the wilderness", do not go out. If they say, "Look! He is in the inner rooms", do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
'Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven" with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
quote:
II Peter 3:4—10 (NRSV):
and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!' They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless.
But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.
Do you find these teachings to still be relevant to today? How can/do you live by them without reducing the extent of their instructions? Can/do you go as far as the teachings require, or must you meet on a middle ground compromise between the needs of this world and the requests within the teachings?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2011 3:50 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2011 5:30 PM Jon has replied
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2011 6:35 PM Jon has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 27 of 122 (603306)
02-03-2011 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
02-03-2011 4:31 PM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
There are too many to deal with now but I will say something about your examples from the synoptics.
quote:
Matt. 5:33—48 (NRSV):
'Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord." But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.
The gist of this teaching is that the followers of Jesus should not have self confidence that they in their own power can promise this or that.
The disciple has to humbly realize that the grace of the indwelling Christ empowers them. Paul said "I can do all things THROUGH HIM Who empowers me."
We should not rashly swear for this leads to pride. It doesn't depend on our mustered up strength in the fallen Adamic nature. Our yes is a simple yes. Our no is a simple know. Our confidence is not in what we can do but in abiding in Christ. He is the only one who is absolute for the Father's will.
This teaching has to be taken with " Abide in Me and I in You. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." (John 15:4)
quote:
'You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.
This teaching also cuts at the root of our old nature which is quick to self vindicate. The disciple learns by abiding in the Holy Spirit to leave his vindication up to God. The lust for vengence and the losing of temper must be dealt with by the cross upon the old nature. The Holy Spirit pours out love in our hearts even for our enemies.
We learn to leave our vindication up to God. We can love and forgive in the power of the Holy Spirit. Knowing that these things, especially in the gospel of Matthew, are impossible apart from Jesus, the disciple is driven deeper into loving Christ.
Impossible teachings for the old nature like this give the lover of Jesus the incentive to sink his roots deeper in the grace of the Holy Spirit. As I said before, only ONE Person in the universe can live this way - Jesus. He is the only one Who is absolute for the Father's will. We overcome by abiding in Him.
quote:
'You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy." But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This teaching also exposes the Adamic nature and how deeply man needs Christ within. It is not only the outward action which the Father looks upon. It is the inward motive.
One thing Jesus did was make the Old Testament laws more penetrating. He uplifted the moral side of the law. He downplayed the ritual side of the Mosiac law - Sabbaths, dietary regulations, etc. as well as regulations which the priests added on merely by religious tradition. These He downplayed usually.
But the moral commandments He uplifted to an even higher standard. It was not simply wrong to commit adultery. Even to look at the woman with lust in the heart was to commit adultery.
In this way Christ shined a brighter light - a more penetrating light on man's inner motive not just his outward actions. And when we receive Jesus as Lord within we find that He goes deeper and deeper and deeper freeing us from not only the outward action but the inner source leaning and motive.
This is a matter of growth. This is a matter of cooperation. And it is a matter of being not able sometimes to get through apart from a horizontal church life in the brotherhood of love.
Now I am going to stop here because I am being interrupted.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 02-03-2011 4:31 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Jon, posted 02-03-2011 5:55 PM jaywill has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 122 (603310)
02-03-2011 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jaywill
02-03-2011 5:30 PM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
As I said before, only ONE Person in the universe can live this way - Jesus.
Would it then be unreasonable to expect anyone other than Jesus to live according to these instructions?
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2011 5:30 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2011 6:17 PM Jon has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 29 of 122 (603311)
02-03-2011 6:00 PM


I will add a word about Christ command to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect.
I think the proper translation and understanding is that we shall be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. "We" meaning we who receive Christ such that His Father becomes our own begetting Father.
Eventually the Father's imparted life will perfect the believer. Not only the believer's forgiveness is garuanteed. His sanctification is also garuanteed. In this way Paul could say that we will be presented without blemish before the Father in love.
"Even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love" (Eph. 1:4)
Christ is able to save the repentant believer to the uttermost. This perfection is not only positional as in judicially pardoned. It is also an organic perfection of transformation. He will do it. We who receive Christ will be transformed into the image of Christ.
We may postpone this process. We may drag this process out longer then it should have taken. But we cannot stop the process of sanctification. Because the forgiven sinner now has the Father's Spirit and the Father's divine nature he will eventually be transformed by the nature.
We do not expect that Christ only has the church age to work on His children. Some of us understand that in the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years before the eternal age, He still has time for this process. The taste of our cooperation however will be different in the age of the kingdom then it is in the age of grace.
So we who are forgiven and regenerated with the second birth will be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.
In the New Testament we not only have the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. We also have the little examples of matured and advanced Christians like Paul and John and Peter. Even James, though very transitional and trying to get use to the new covenant, is still very spiritually mature.
Paul, especially, is a kind of model for us to see how a man got through in the transformation and sanctification process.
And John's epistles seem as if written from down town New Jerusalem. This man is in another realm. He is deep in Christ.
So we have examples. And we even have in Second Corinthians somewhat of an autobiography of a matured apostle - Paul.

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 02-03-2011 6:18 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 30 of 122 (603317)
02-03-2011 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jon
02-03-2011 5:55 PM


Re: The Messenger vs. the Message
quote:
Would it then be unreasonable to expect anyone other than Jesus to live according to these instructions?
I would not expect anyone to approach this kind of experience early in their Christian life. It depends upon how deep their surrender and consecration are.
I would expect that after time and considerable maturing one would approach these kinds of expressions.
It is not a matter of keeping the letter of laws. It is a matter of abiding in a living Jesus who more and more fills the soul.
Let's take my own experience. I am not where I would like to be. Nor am I where I should be. But I thank God that I know I am not where I use to be.
I could look back and see how Christ has wrought His personality into mine. There certainly are chambers of my heart which I still need to surrender to Him. And I certainly know others who are further along in this growth of life.
History has many testimonies recent and old of men and women, boys and girls who reacted with the life of Jesus in wonderful ways.
You see to some extent evangelical mainstream Christianity has given a wrong impression. Some preachers have made the impression that to become a Christian is "having arrived." One has his "ticket". But what we see in the New Testament is God desire that those forgiven become overcomers - "more than conquerers"
This maturing is a matter of growth. There is no instantaneous spiritual maturity. Though we may receive the redemption and the gift of eternal life in a second, sanctification, transformation, conformation take a life time.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jon, posted 02-03-2011 5:55 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 02-03-2011 6:24 PM jaywill has replied

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