|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Living According to Christ: Is it Reasonable? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
First, yes, the evidence shows that the early Christians were an apocalyptic cult that did expect an end, but not "the end of the world" type but rather a revolution. Yes, of course. If it appeared I was interpreting the writings to indicate a belief in an actual end, then that was my error of poor explanation. As the quote by Paul shows, the 'end' was not an 'end of the world' per se, but an end of the way things are, a 'passing away' of the 'form of this world' (I Cor. 7:31). Jon Check out Apollo's Temple!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
quote: Obviously I don't take all literally. I agree with jars assessment. As far as not worrying about tomorrow, I fear I have abused and contorted that one. I literally have nothing saved for retirement.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Jon writes: The New Testament presents a lot of teachings telling people how to live and how to behave. These how to live teachings often ask that individuals disregard their earthly wealth and worries to live a life in devotion of Christ and God. But, of course, Jesus preached, and Paul believed, that the world was soon to end. And it appears that many of Jesus', and Paul's, how to live teachings seem specifically tied to this belief: Just a couple of quick thoughts on this. Much of the discussion in the gospels that might be construed as being about end times is really political. Jesus essentially said that if the Jews keep trying to beat the Romans militarily, the Romans will do what they always did. What he prophesied came true with the destruction of Jerusalem and more in the war of 70AD. His message was that he, Jesus the Messiah, was building a new kingdom. It would be a kingdom without borders made up of those who would take his message of love, justice, truth, mercy, forgiveness etc to the world. Basically he said that the way to defeat the Romans was to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. It kind worked 300 years or so later, as Rome, at least in name became a Christian empire. He did occasionally talk about end times such as in Matthew 25 where He talked about the righteous as being the ones that clothed him when he was naked, fed him when he was hungry and visited him when he was in prison and finished up saying that when you do those things for those who need it we are doing it for him. The Epistles are more about the spreading and implementation of the kingdom that Christ established through His life death and resurrection. I read the message that the end times started at that point and that we still live in them today, but no one knows when God's new creation, or re-creation if you like, will finally be accomplished. With that in mind it's probably best to figure that there is probably a few million years to go, so we should all be busy loving our neighbour, feeding the hungry, etc no matter where we find them. Also with that in mind we better take care of our earthly home. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
Just a couple of quick thoughts on this. Much of the discussion in the gospels that might be construed as being about end times is really political. Jesus essentially said that if the Jews keep trying to beat the Romans militarily, the Romans will do what they always did. What he prophesied came true with the destruction of Jerusalem and more in the war of 70AD. His message was that he, Jesus the Messiah, was building a new kingdom. It would be a kingdom without borders made up of those who would take his message of love, justice, truth, mercy, forgiveness etc to the world. Basically he said that the way to defeat the Romans was to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. It kind worked 300 years or so later, as Rome, at least in name became a Christian empire. He did occasionally talk about end times such as in Matthew 25 where He talked about the righteous as being the ones that clothed him when he was naked, fed him when he was hungry and visited him when he was in prison and finished up saying that when you do those things for those who need it we are doing it for him. The Epistles are more about the spreading and implementation of the kingdom that Christ established through His life death and resurrection. I read the message that the end times started at that point and that we still live in them today, but no one knows when God's new creation, or re-creation if you like, will finally be accomplished. I am wondering if you'd be able to provide any chapter-verse citations that you believe evidence these claims. Jon Check out Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Jon writes: I am wondering if you'd be able to provide any chapter-verse citations that you believe evidence these claims. It is hard to cherry pick verses from the Bible but I’ll see what I can do. I believe that the Bible should be read as one great story or meta-narrative so that when an individual verse is read it can be seen in the context of the big picture.
GDR writes: Just a couple of quick thoughts on this. Much of the discussion in the gospels that might be construed as being about end times is really political. Jesus essentially said that if the Jews keep trying to beat the Romans militarily, the Romans will do what they always did. What he prophesied came true with the destruction of Jerusalem and more in the war of 70AD. Here is maybe the most obvious example from Luke 21.
quote: Vs. 20 — 24 is clear and the obvious armies that He would be referring to are the Romans. 25-26 is typical Jewish language for the Earth being in turmoil. 27-28 refers back to Daniel 7.
quote:A first century Jew would see the prophesy of Daniel 7 being fulfilled. With the war of 70 AD those that had advocated for the overthrow of the Romans by military means were gone and Christ’s message of loving your enemy was vindicated. GDR writes: His message was that he, Jesus the Messiah, was building a new kingdom. It would be a kingdom without borders made up of those who would take his message of love, justice, truth, mercy, forgiveness etc to the world. Basically he said that the way to defeat the Romans was to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. It kind worked 300 years or so later, as Rome, at least in name became a Christian empire. From Mark 1
quote:In that Jesus is saying that the kingdom of God has been or is being established. Incidentally in the book of Matthew he uses the term Kingdom of Heaven as opposed to Kingdom of God which is understood to be the same thing. This is from 1st Corinthians quote:This is clear that the kingdom as established by Christ will be given to the father at the end of time, whenever that might be. He made it very clear throughout His teaching that what he desired of His followers was a loving heart. This is clear in the Beatitudes and in the parables. Paul says this in Romans 14
quote: GDR writes: He did occasionally talk about end times such as in Matthew 25 where He talked about the righteous as being the ones that clothed him when he was naked, fed him when he was hungry and visited him when he was in prison and finished up saying that when you do those things for those who need it we are doing it for him. This in my view is one of the few times that Christ’s teaching were about end times.
GDR writes: ` The Epistles are more about the spreading and implementation of the kingdom that Christ established through His life death and resurrection. I read the message that the end times started at that point and that we still live in them today, but no one knows when God's new creation, or re-creation if you like, will finally be accomplished. In Colossians 4:11 Paul refers to others as fellow workers for the Kingdom of God. So at the end of all this I go back to my favourite verse which is Micah 6:8 which I is for all mankind. He has told you, O man what is good; And what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God. This then goes back to the original question of "Is it reasonable to live according to Christ". My answer is yes.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Aurora Junior Member (Idle past 4696 days) Posts: 13 From: India Joined: |
Reading the Bible in my language and in English my understanding is that, as Jesus speaks about it, the apostles and early Christians expect the second coming of Christ to happen soon. Many of the teachings also seems to be guided by this expectation. Like their predecessors through the ages many Christians even today still belief the second coming to take place soon. I felt that strictly following early teachings of Christianity is not compatible with today's world. Instead of following these teachings many Christians try to interpret the Bible to fit their modern Christian lifestyle. But again, they said this flexibility shows the glory of Christianity.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
frako Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Christians expect the second coming of Christ to happen soon HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHH!!!!! Well the second coming has been expected to happen soon by Christians for the past 2000 years. Jesus expected it to happen whiting a lifetime. That whole s speech he made some of you will LIVE to see the kingdom of god on earth or some BS like that. And people have been scammed by this second coming for a long time one guy made me laugh he predicted that the rapture would happen somewhere in 1880 and he was selling stuff like robes for the rapture when that day came and went nobody got raptured and he made loads of money a few years later he pulled the same scam again, and im not sure but i think he did it 3 times more and he always had an audience of guilable Christians standing in line to buy his rapture clothes.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
If I understand the OP the question is is living according to Christ reasonable today.
I think that the New Testament intended that the passage of time would not effect the essentials of living in the new covenant. Christ declared that He would be with the disciples "all the days, even to the consummation of the age" (Matt. 28:20) . He is declared to be the same "yesterday and today, [yes], even forever." (Heb. 13:8) . Indeed, the faith of Christ needs to be torture tested (no pun intended) by various circumstances. That the grace of Christ was livable in any kind of adverse situation or circumstances seems to be a goal of God allowing so much time to pass before His second coming. This certainly does not mean things will be easy for Christians. But Christ said that the gates of Hades would not prevail against the church. They certainly have and will continue to try to prevail. Nothing in His teaching indicates to me that Christ forsaw that obedience should peter out (no pun intended). He did put the matter as a kind of open ended question though:
"When the Son of man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" But men ought to always pray and not lose heart (See Luke 18:1-8) . Paul, at the end of the eight chapter of his Roman letter expresses his expectation that nothing will overcome the believers in Christ - even "things present or things to come". I conclude we can live the Christian life today by the grace of Christ.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
I think that the New Testament intended that the passage of time would not effect the essentials of living in the new covenant. Christ declared that He would be with the disciples "all the days, even to the consummation of the age" (Matt. 28:20) . How does that support the notion of Jesus' message being relevant today?
He is declared to be the same "yesterday and today, [yes], even forever." (Heb. 13:8) . What does Jesus' eternalness have to do with the continued relevancy of his message?
Nothing in His teaching indicates to me that Christ forsaw that obedience should peter out (no pun intended). Sure; but that still doesn't address the relevancy of his instructions in the modern era.
I conclude we can live the Christian life today by the grace of Christ. Okay. How? How do his teachings still have relevancy? What can we do today that is still inline with the teachings of Jesus? Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: The divine agape Love is relevant today. Overcoming sin is relevant today. Expressing the highest level of morality is relevant today. I can give you personal examples from my own life how living by the grace of Christ has been relevant today. Living unto God's kingdom is relevant in any age.
quote: It has been 2,000 years and no one has superceeded Jesus Christ as an example of the purest teaching and highest morality on earth. And since no one can live that way without His indwelling presence as the Holy Spirit, His being the same yesterday, today, and forever makes Him completely relevant.
quote: There are millions in China who find His instructions relevant. There are growing numbers in South America and in Africa who share their experience. In Europe Atheism is on the rise. But everywhere else that I know, living with the available Jesus Christ is relevant in modern times. That would include a good number in Europe also where Atheism is on the rise. In Israel the Christian faith is growing, yet not in a sensational way. These Jews find abiding in Christ and He in them relevant to thier modern times. In America many are also discovering living in the grace of Christ is relevant to a modern age. Even in the Arab world God seems to be going out of His way to impart unusual ways of bringing truth seeking Arabs into the Christian faith. Apparently they find Jesus' teachings to be relevant to their modern situation. All these peoples have their daily battles. They may not all have the same battles. But they all have their adverse circumstances and inward human failities to overcome. Jesus as the resurrected and available living Lord is relevant. And the need for reconciliation and forgiveness from God is always relevant on this side of eternity. Christ is relevant to that forgiveness from God and between human and human. There are many people I have not been able to truly forgive except in the power of the grace of Jesus Christ.
quote: He is available as the Holy Spirit. That is the [B]"life giving Spirit" [B] The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) We can be redeemed by believing into Christ so that Christ the life giving Holy Spirit might abide in us. He told His disciples "Abide in Me and I in you" . We can open up our hearts and receive Christ and learn to abide in Him as a sphere and a realm. As a result in our abiding in Him He will spontaneously abide in us. This mutual abiding brings God into us and us into God, We begin to react not in our sinful selves but in the living Christ within. In so doing we cooperate with God's eternal purpose to have sons of God for His expression and our enjoyment. Christ is more relevant today than ever. Some of the social issues are so very complex and difficult. Some of us need to handle them with the gloves of Jesus Christ. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
I listed some very specific teachings in Message 1, Message 8, and Message 12:
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: Do you find these teachings to still be relevant to today? How can/do you live by them without reducing the extent of their instructions? Can/do you go as far as the teachings require, or must you meet on a middle ground compromise between the needs of this world and the requests within the teachings? Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
There are too many to deal with now but I will say something about your examples from the synoptics.
quote: The gist of this teaching is that the followers of Jesus should not have self confidence that they in their own power can promise this or that. The disciple has to humbly realize that the grace of the indwelling Christ empowers them. Paul said "I can do all things THROUGH HIM Who empowers me." We should not rashly swear for this leads to pride. It doesn't depend on our mustered up strength in the fallen Adamic nature. Our yes is a simple yes. Our no is a simple know. Our confidence is not in what we can do but in abiding in Christ. He is the only one who is absolute for the Father's will. This teaching has to be taken with " Abide in Me and I in You. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." (John 15:4) quote: This teaching also cuts at the root of our old nature which is quick to self vindicate. The disciple learns by abiding in the Holy Spirit to leave his vindication up to God. The lust for vengence and the losing of temper must be dealt with by the cross upon the old nature. The Holy Spirit pours out love in our hearts even for our enemies. We learn to leave our vindication up to God. We can love and forgive in the power of the Holy Spirit. Knowing that these things, especially in the gospel of Matthew, are impossible apart from Jesus, the disciple is driven deeper into loving Christ. Impossible teachings for the old nature like this give the lover of Jesus the incentive to sink his roots deeper in the grace of the Holy Spirit. As I said before, only ONE Person in the universe can live this way - Jesus. He is the only one Who is absolute for the Father's will. We overcome by abiding in Him.
quote: This teaching also exposes the Adamic nature and how deeply man needs Christ within. It is not only the outward action which the Father looks upon. It is the inward motive. One thing Jesus did was make the Old Testament laws more penetrating. He uplifted the moral side of the law. He downplayed the ritual side of the Mosiac law - Sabbaths, dietary regulations, etc. as well as regulations which the priests added on merely by religious tradition. These He downplayed usually. But the moral commandments He uplifted to an even higher standard. It was not simply wrong to commit adultery. Even to look at the woman with lust in the heart was to commit adultery. In this way Christ shined a brighter light - a more penetrating light on man's inner motive not just his outward actions. And when we receive Jesus as Lord within we find that He goes deeper and deeper and deeper freeing us from not only the outward action but the inner source leaning and motive. This is a matter of growth. This is a matter of cooperation. And it is a matter of being not able sometimes to get through apart from a horizontal church life in the brotherhood of love. Now I am going to stop here because I am being interrupted. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
As I said before, only ONE Person in the universe can live this way - Jesus. Would it then be unreasonable to expect anyone other than Jesus to live according to these instructions? Jon Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
I will add a word about Christ command to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect.
I think the proper translation and understanding is that we shall be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. "We" meaning we who receive Christ such that His Father becomes our own begetting Father. Eventually the Father's imparted life will perfect the believer. Not only the believer's forgiveness is garuanteed. His sanctification is also garuanteed. In this way Paul could say that we will be presented without blemish before the Father in love.
"Even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love" (Eph. 1:4) Christ is able to save the repentant believer to the uttermost. This perfection is not only positional as in judicially pardoned. It is also an organic perfection of transformation. He will do it. We who receive Christ will be transformed into the image of Christ. We may postpone this process. We may drag this process out longer then it should have taken. But we cannot stop the process of sanctification. Because the forgiven sinner now has the Father's Spirit and the Father's divine nature he will eventually be transformed by the nature. We do not expect that Christ only has the church age to work on His children. Some of us understand that in the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years before the eternal age, He still has time for this process. The taste of our cooperation however will be different in the age of the kingdom then it is in the age of grace. So we who are forgiven and regenerated with the second birth will be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. In the New Testament we not only have the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. We also have the little examples of matured and advanced Christians like Paul and John and Peter. Even James, though very transitional and trying to get use to the new covenant, is still very spiritually mature. Paul, especially, is a kind of model for us to see how a man got through in the transformation and sanctification process. And John's epistles seem as if written from down town New Jerusalem. This man is in another realm. He is deep in Christ. So we have examples. And we even have in Second Corinthians somewhat of an autobiography of a matured apostle - Paul.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: I would not expect anyone to approach this kind of experience early in their Christian life. It depends upon how deep their surrender and consecration are. I would expect that after time and considerable maturing one would approach these kinds of expressions. It is not a matter of keeping the letter of laws. It is a matter of abiding in a living Jesus who more and more fills the soul. Let's take my own experience. I am not where I would like to be. Nor am I where I should be. But I thank God that I know I am not where I use to be. I could look back and see how Christ has wrought His personality into mine. There certainly are chambers of my heart which I still need to surrender to Him. And I certainly know others who are further along in this growth of life. History has many testimonies recent and old of men and women, boys and girls who reacted with the life of Jesus in wonderful ways. You see to some extent evangelical mainstream Christianity has given a wrong impression. Some preachers have made the impression that to become a Christian is "having arrived." One has his "ticket". But what we see in the New Testament is God desire that those forgiven become overcomers - "more than conquerers" This maturing is a matter of growth. There is no instantaneous spiritual maturity. Though we may receive the redemption and the gift of eternal life in a second, sanctification, transformation, conformation take a life time. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024