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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
articulett
Member (Idle past 3371 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


Message 31 of 299 (593521)
11-27-2010 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 8:27 AM


Tom Cruise is certainly more successful than you-- he credits Scientology. Mormons credit Mormonism.
Myself, I am much more interested in what is true. Understanding the really cool things that humans know for the first time (thanks to science) is uplifting to me in a way religion never was. In my experience, every believer imagines that those that believe as they do are more moral and happier-- and they set about confirming those biases just as their indoctrinators have lead them to do. Their indoctrinators tell them that they can't be happy or horrible things will happen if they lose the faith (and, indeed, they often fulfill that "prophesy" by shunning "apostates" of their faith.)
But studies show that it's more secular societies and areas of the country that are the most functional: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 32 of 299 (593523)
11-27-2010 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by RAZD
11-27-2010 3:25 PM


Re: On the other hand ...
All you are doing is using the "absence of evidence is evidence of absence logical fallacy" to say that your opinion is valid.
I never said it is absolutly true that god does not exsit I said the probability given that whit all the evidence how everything we know could have formed naturaly and no evidence that something could not have formed naturaly. It is By fare more plausible (beyond reasnoble doubt) that there is no god that had any hand in anything. I never said it is absolutly true thad god had no hand in anything.
To make it more clear, using your logic you could not say that you are ALMOST certin that there is no invisible undetectable unicorn running arround on the moon, you could only say the non-existence of the unicorn on the moon is possible, maybe likely, but not sure.
Do you see how your logic fails.
Though i do know that in these cases you can never be 100% sure that there is no god, or that there is no unicorn on the moon. Though you can be 100% shure that there is a god, or that there is a unicorn on the moon if you find some evidence of any of them.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 299 (593525)
11-27-2010 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Meldinoor
11-26-2010 1:19 AM


Sounds like you are doing jess fine.
Just keep questioning all the answers and you'll do fine.
It's pretty clear that none of the Gods we can discuss are much more than Gods created by man, particularly ALL the different Gods in the Christian Bible.
Don't worry, if and when you actually do meet a GOD you can decide if its real.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Meldinoor, posted 11-29-2010 8:48 PM jar has replied

  
articulett
Member (Idle past 3371 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


Message 34 of 299 (593526)
11-27-2010 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
11-27-2010 1:12 PM


Re: On the other hand ...
Where are you on the scale when it comes to demons? How about reincarnation? Angels? Fairies? Bigfoot? If there's a difference, why?
Do you fear something "bad" will happen if you stopped believing in some version of "god"?
If there was no god and we COULD know this for sure-- would you want to know? What about those other things I mentioned?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 35 of 299 (593527)
11-27-2010 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by RAZD
11-27-2010 3:25 PM


Re: On the other hand ...
All you are doing is using the "absence of evidence is evidence of absence logical fallacy" to say that your opinion is valid.
Whether or not this is a fallacy depends on whether or not presence of X would imply evidence of X.
The presence of an elephant in the room would imply the presence of evidence of an elephant in the room. The absence of such evidence does in fact imply the absence of an elephant.
By most definitions of God, God would be the universe-sized elephant in the universe.

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 36 of 299 (593528)
11-27-2010 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
11-27-2010 4:24 PM


Re: On the other hand ...
Whether or not this is a fallacy depends on whether or not presence of X would imply evidence of X.
The presence of an elephant in the room would imply the presence of evidence of an elephant in the room. The absence of such evidence does in fact imply the absence of an elephant.
By most definitions of God, God would be the universe-sized elephant in the universe.
Well the problem is that when you are dealing with god you are dealing with MAGIC so every claim you make to disprove god can be counterd by MAGIC so you can only arive at a 99.997%(the acuracy of a pregnacy test if i am not mistaken) conclusion that there is no god.

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Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 37 of 299 (593529)
11-27-2010 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
11-27-2010 10:39 AM


Re: Why be hasty at deconversion?
Phat writes:
Why is it necessary to break that habit? Even if prayer were only meditation with an idealized higher self, it would serve some useful function.But if you have to let go, by all means dont let me get in your way
I do kind of like prayer. It allows me to reflect on my goals and whatever hurdles I have to clear in the near future. It's also nice to express gratitude for the good things in my life, and to reflect on past mistakes and seek self-improvement. But if I can do all this without consciously deluding myself, it would be ideal.
Phat writes:
I suppose that it wouldnt hurt to bhe an atheist, but it makes me feel just a wee bit uncomfortable that someone who knows what they are doing isnt in charge.
Who cares if a belief makes you uncomfortable? I feel uncomfortable whenever I think of starving, disease-ridden Ethiopians, but I'm not going to start imagining that suffering isn't real just because it would make me feel better. I can no longer believe in something just because I really want to, I must be able to justify it.
Phat writes:
I still dont understand why you have to be a non believer?
Because I don't believe? It's much easier to disbelieve in an arbitrary notion than to believe it, because belief requires justification. I don't need evidence that God doesn't exist to justify not believing in Him. The dearth of evidence for His existence is enough.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

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Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 38 of 299 (593530)
11-27-2010 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
11-27-2010 1:12 PM


My first reaction was to say 5, or 6, but that would only be my stance regarding the biblical God, whose existence is much easier to discredit than the rather vague notion of "a god". Until there is a clear and unambiguous definition of the term "god", it doesn't really make sense to be anywhere on the scale.
Until you tell me what you mean by "god(s)" I will have to remain non-committal.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 299 (593531)
11-27-2010 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 3:02 PM


Re: On the other hand ...
Buzsaw writes:
Frako, click on my profile and find all of the evidence I have cited At EvC over the past seven years supportive to the existence of the Biblical god, Jehovah.
The kind of "evidence" that you cite had a lot to do with deconverting me.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

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Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 40 of 299 (593533)
11-27-2010 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 3:02 PM


Re: On the other hand ...
It might be interesting to see you present what you consider your most convincing evidence in a Great Debate. So far I'm as unconvinced by your claims of prophecy and ancient history as everyone else on this forum.
The Great Debate format would allow you to present your arguments without the clutter of twenty people picking them apart at the same time. Also, there would finally be somewhere where your "evidence" is neatly summarized, allowing easy reference whenever you want to point someone toward your "previously mentioned evidence".
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 41 of 299 (593536)
11-27-2010 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by articulett
11-27-2010 4:22 PM


not the topic
Hi articulett, and welcome to the fray if I haven't said it before.
Where are you on the scale when it comes to ...
This thread is not about me and my personal beliefs, and which I have no need to discuss or justify to anyone.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 42 of 299 (593537)
11-27-2010 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 4:42 PM


therefore we don't know
Hi Meldinoor, thanks.
Until you tell me what you mean by "god(s)" I will have to remain non-committal.
And this is the agnostic position - that until there is sufficient information on which to base a decision, the logical conclusion is that we don't know.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 299 (593538)
11-27-2010 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 4:50 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Meldinoor writes:
The Great Debate format would allow you to present your arguments without the clutter of twenty people picking them apart at the same time. Also, there would finally be somewhere where your "evidence" is neatly summarized, allowing easy reference whenever you want to point someone toward your "previously mentioned evidence".
Meldinoor, that makes good sense. There's no one here at EvC that I would prefer for a Great Debate on evidence of the existence of Jehovah more than you.
Fulfilled Biblical prophecies would be among the topics to be debated. For an opener I would cite the phenomena of the restoration of Israel as a nation after some nineteen plus centuries of global dispersion.
This is a busy time for me, with winter coming on. I'm re-roofing some buildings along with other activities in my busy life as sole proprietor. My responses would be sporadic time wise. This would necessarily be ongoing for some time, catch as catch can, so as not to limit input in other threads etc. On that basis, how about it?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 45 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 5:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 44 of 299 (593540)
11-27-2010 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 5:14 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Where is Hyroglyphics???

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 45 of 299 (593542)
11-27-2010 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 5:14 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Alright Buz,
I will be somewhat short of time what with school and work as well, especially with my finals coming up in couple of weeks. But I would be happy to debate you. Since you're the one presenting the arguments, I suggest you propose the Great Debate topic. I know you probably have hundreds of arguments for the existence of God, but let's start off with just a few of your strongest arguments so that things don't get too cluttered.
Looking forward to an interesting debate,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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