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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 299 (593543)
11-27-2010 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by xongsmith
11-27-2010 5:23 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
xongsmith writes:
Where is Hyroglyphics???
I wish I knew. He is missed. Perhaps he's lurking without logging in. I pray for him.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by xongsmith, posted 11-27-2010 5:23 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 299 (593544)
11-27-2010 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
11-27-2010 5:03 PM


Re: therefore we don't know
Until you tell me what you mean by "god(s)" I will have to remain non-committal.
And this is the agnostic position - that until there is sufficient information on which to base a decision, the logical conclusion is that we don't know.
Well, if it turns out that "God" means my left leg, then there is a God and it's attached to my groin.
But it can't turn out that words don't mean what we mean them to mean. We can imagine discovering a breeding colony of unicorns; we can't imagine discovering that "dog" really means cat. Nor can we discover that God means my left leg.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2010 5:03 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 48 of 299 (593547)
11-27-2010 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
11-27-2010 5:03 PM


Re: therefore we don't know
Meldinoor writes:
Until you tell me what you mean by "god(s)" I will have to remain non-committal.
RAZD writes:
And this is the agnostic position - that until there is sufficient information on which to base a decision, the logical conclusion is that we don't know.
It is not the agnostic position as you defined that in Message 24. For you defined it as a question on evidence, while Meldinoor is saying that it is a conceptual question, a question of meaning.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2010 5:03 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 6:30 PM nwr has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 299 (593548)
11-27-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 5:47 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Meldinoor writes:
Looking forward to an interesting debate,
I've debated the Israel phenomenon in past threads. Since nobody acknowledges it as viable evidence, this will be a good venue for debating whether that be so.
Thanks for accepting the challenge. You have shown yourself to be a formidable and reasonable opponent.
I'll begin working up an opener.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 5:47 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 50 of 299 (593550)
11-27-2010 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Meldinoor
11-26-2010 9:48 PM


Melindoor writes:
That's actually a very good question that I have asked myself on occasion. I don't think my motives for leaving the faith were by any means contrary to what the Bible teaches. All I did was apply reason to determine whether my beliefs were justifiable or not. Had I done the same in a conversion to Christianity, no Christian would have suggested I was doing it "for the wrong reasons".
Indeed. You must in all instances head in the direction the evidence (or lack of it) points to.
Another question for you then. Can I assume that the evidence you had during belief is the same evidence that you have now - and that you've come to critique that evidence in a different way. You may, to think of a common example, have taken things as true because you were told so by authority figures - but have now the ability to evaluate for yourself.
-
The only choice I made was to be honest with myself about my lack of faith. I can't "choose" to believe anything without a reason. I have to be convinced first.
I don't think a God whose mode of salvation centres around convincing the world of sin, righteousness and judgement would have much problem with that
-
I imagine that if God is a good and loving god, He would be patient with my doubts and guide me back to the faith. That's what I hope at any rate, assuming that He really is there.
Whether he would finally or not I'm not sure. But a good God would surely try.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Meldinoor, posted 11-26-2010 9:48 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 6:40 PM iano has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 51 of 299 (593551)
11-27-2010 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by nwr
11-27-2010 6:24 PM


Re: therefore we don't know
I think the technical term for my stance on the issue of gods in general would be Ignosticism. Since the truth value of an undefined concept can not be determined (or even speculated upon), it doesn't really make sense to place oneself on RAZD's scale, even as an agnostic.
My stance on gods is exactly the same as my stance on GurblFnagl, another undefined term. I consider myself neither a believer, disbeliever, or agnostic on the existence of GurblFnagl, because the question of his/her/its existence is moot.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by nwr, posted 11-27-2010 6:24 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by nwr, posted 11-27-2010 8:04 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 52 of 299 (593552)
11-27-2010 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 5:47 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Hi Meldinoor,
Sorry to here of your turbulent times and what appears to be ship-wrecked faith. I was looking over comments Buzsaw made and I agree with what he has to say. I think a Great Debate with him would be an excellent idea.
Prophecy is one of the strongest reasons to put your faith in the bible and thus the God of the bible. Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies just himself.
In my opinion one of the major reasons you have struggled with your belief in God is because you compromise the truth of what God has revealed through his word with "worldly" wisdom. God's ways are not our ways and our wisdom is foolishness to God.
Its all about faith and faith is believing what you cannot see.
When we go back to the beginning where man fell into sin it was a faith issue. We didn't believe and trust what God said and every since then its an ongoing lesson about learning to trust God no matter what Satan or the world says.
I have been walking with God since 1983 and He has clearly revealed himself to me over and over and over again. One key as to why that has been my experience is because I trust him. I have faith what he has said is 100% true.
And I would say the majority of the time that God waits till the 11th hour to answer prayers. Over the years as I needed money for bills or a job or something it usually came down to the wire then POW He would open some door in the nick of time. He does that for two reasons. One, to grow our faith and two, to make sure we knew it was Him and not luck or coincidence. I have seen this happen more times than I can count.
....I don't know my friend, until you are willing to completely trust God above what the world has to say I think your faith will falter.
I will keep you in my prayers,
IC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 5:47 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2010 7:25 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 56 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 7:27 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 11-27-2010 8:34 PM ICdesign has replied
 Message 66 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2010 9:15 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 53 of 299 (593553)
11-27-2010 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by iano
11-27-2010 6:29 PM


iano writes:
Another question for you then. Can I assume that the evidence you had during belief is the same evidence that you have now - and that you've come to critique that evidence in a different way.
Quite so. I think my belief in God was sustained mostly by my will to believe in God. This and a handful of religious experiences that I've had, and that I still can't fully explain, formed the basis for my faith. It helped to be immersed in Christian culture and to be part of a very religious extended family. With so many believers, it was easier to believe that they were onto something.
iano writes:
I don't think a God whose mode of salvation centres around convincing the world of sin, righteousness and judgement would have much problem with that
I wouldn't either. But on the other hand, He did kind of overreact after a couple of nave naked people in a garden decided to taste a piece of fruit.
iano writes:
Whether he would finally or not I'm not sure. But a good God would surely try.
I would think so. So if I don't see God presenting some effort to restore my faith, I will either assume that He isn't there, or that He isn't good. Either way, not much point in worshiping Him.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by iano, posted 11-27-2010 6:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 11-27-2010 7:03 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 54 of 299 (593560)
11-27-2010 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 6:40 PM


Quite so. I think my belief in God was sustained mostly by my will to believe in God. This and a handful of religious experiences that I've had, and that I still can't fully explain, formed the basis for my faith. It helped to be immersed in Christian culture and to be part of a very religious extended family. With so many believers, it was easier to believe that they were onto something.
Perhaps they were - but when it comes to an answer to the biggest question one could ever ask, hand-me-down faith couldn't (or shouldn't) be expected to cut it.
You might find your your deconversion propagates cracks in others faith - if theirs is similiarily moored. Not that you shouldn't announce the situation of course..
-
But on the other hand, He did kind of overreact after a couple of nave naked people in a garden decided to taste a piece of fruit
I thought the whole affair was an exercise in righteous ingenuity (on God's part). And don't quite see how they were naive in a way that matters. Perhaps after your GD with Buzz..
-
I would think so. So if I don't see God presenting some effort to restore my faith, I will either assume that He isn't there, or that He isn't good. Either way, not much point in worshiping Him.
It would seem like the best way to use the brains God gave you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 6:40 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 299 (593562)
11-27-2010 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 6:32 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
ICDESIGN writes:
Its all about faith and faith is believing what you cannot see.
Faith, however, can be dangerously blind, void of evidence. I think of the 30 or so intelligent Heavens Gaters at Rancho Santa Fe, CA who poisoned themselves to death, having faith for Haley's Comet to transport them to Paradise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 6:32 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 7:29 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 58 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 7:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 56 of 299 (593563)
11-27-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 6:32 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Hello ICDESIGN,
ICDESIGN writes:
Sorry to here of your turbulent times and what appears to be ship-wrecked faith.
Thank you for your concern. I would point out that there's no need to feel sorry about it, but from your point of view I guess that puts me in a pretty sad position. So thanks.
Buzsaw writes:
I was looking over comments Buzsaw made and I agree with what he has to say. I think a Great Debate with him would be an excellent idea.
I agree. A great debate with Buzsaw will allow him to present his arguments in one place, rather than have them spread out throughout the forums. Too often he refers back to some evidence, but it's often difficult to find it, or to see if there really was any in the first place.
From what I've seen of his arguments in the past, I have yet to find any of them particularly convincing. Obviously not because of bias, since I agreed with him on most of what he said about God. I'm not going to draw any conclusions until I see what he presents, but I don't have high expectations. Hopefully I'll be surprised.
ICDESIGN writes:
Prophecy is one of the strongest reasons to put your faith in the bible and thus the God of the bible. Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies just himself.
Or so the Bible says. Other religions claim fulfilled prophecy as well.
Curiously, when certain scientific theories make hundreds of predictions and they all come true, this doesn't seem to influence your acceptance of them. Do you have double standards?
ICDESIGN writes:
In my opinion one of the major reasons you have struggled with your belief in God is because you compromise the truth of what God has revealed through his word with "worldly" wisdom. God's ways are not our ways and our wisdom is foolishness to God.
It's possible. If I never entertained any independent thought, and avoided any discussion contrary to my beliefs, I would probably still have my faith. But what would that faith be worth? A Mormon, Muslim, or Hindu could equally refuse to evaluate their faiths on the basis of facts and evidence, and you would consider them closed-minded. Even an atheist who refused to consider any alternatives would be considered closed-minded, and rightfully so. You never know how strong or how valuable your faith is, until it is tested. And if it fails the test of reality, then what was it worth in the first place?
ICDESIGN writes:
...its an ongoing lesson about learning to trust God no matter what Satan or the world says.
On that same token, how would I know that the Muslim God, Allah, is not the One True God? Or Vishnu? Osiris? All other beliefs could be corruptions authored by Satan (or Iblis). How do you know for sure? Obviously, at some point we have to rely on some kind of evidence, or arguments, and ultimately our own brains, to determine which world view is more likely to be correct. We have to decide to believe in God before we can trust Him. And I did trust Him. For many years I was the only outspoken Christian among my peers, and I was never afraid to share my beliefs. For many years I was also an ID proponent, but as I said earlier, my faith was not really impacted by my being corrected on that front.
ICDESIGN writes:
I have been walking with God since 1983 and He has clearly revealed himself to me over and over and over again
Why doesn't He clearly reveal himself to me, even after many a prayer for Him to do so? Even when I felt his presence during the times when my faith was at its strongest, He never clearly and unambiguously proved His existence to me. If He can present Himself to you, then why can't He do so for unbelievers and those who are struggling with their faith?
ICDESIGN writes:
He does that for two reasons. One, to grow our faith and two, to make sure we knew it was Him and not luck or coincidence. I have seen this happen more times than I can count.
I have seen it too. But always in ways that were indistinguishable from luck, or chance. I have never gotten a check signed "God".
ICDESIGN writes:
I will keep you in my prayers
Thank you.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 6:32 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 8:09 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 57 of 299 (593564)
11-27-2010 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 7:25 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Thank you Buz, I didn't expect you to agree with me on this. Perhaps you do have some good reasons to believe as you do.
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2010 7:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 11-28-2010 10:14 AM Meldinoor has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 58 of 299 (593571)
11-27-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
11-27-2010 7:25 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Buzsaw writes:
Faith, however, can be dangerously blind, void of evidence. I think of the 30 or so intelligent Heavens Gaters at Rancho Santa Fe, CA who poisoned themselves to death, having faith for Haley's Comet to transport them to Paradise.
Well of course WHAT you are putting your faith in is only beneficial if it is true. Evidence is great when possible. Eve had no evidence that the fruit God told her not to eat would have the effect he said it would. All she had was his word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 11-27-2010 7:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 11-27-2010 7:58 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 59 of 299 (593573)
11-27-2010 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICdesign
11-27-2010 7:55 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
ICDESIGN writes:
Buzsaw writes:
Faith, however, can be dangerously blind, void of evidence. I think of the 30 or so intelligent Heavens Gaters at Rancho Santa Fe, CA who poisoned themselves to death, having faith for Haley's Comet to transport them to Paradise.
Well of course WHAT you are putting your faith in is only beneficial if it is true. Evidence is great when possible. Eve had no evidence that the fruit God told her not to eat would have the effect he said it would. All she had was his word.
And of course, the evidence is that eating the fruit did NOT have the effect God said it would have.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICdesign, posted 11-27-2010 7:55 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 60 of 299 (593575)
11-27-2010 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 6:30 PM


Re: therefore we don't know
Meldinoor writes:
I think the technical term for my stance on the issue of gods in general would be Ignosticism. Since the truth value of an undefined concept can not be determined (or even speculated upon), it doesn't really make sense to place oneself on RAZD's scale, even as an agnostic.
That makes a lot of sense to me.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 6:30 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
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