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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 76 of 299 (593652)
11-28-2010 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
11-28-2010 10:37 AM


Re: Design without a designer?
jar writes:
But that has nothing to do with any deconversion experiences.
Deconversion is a faith issue.....and thank you for providing the wonderful pictures of God's great design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 11-28-2010 10:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 11-28-2010 11:04 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 77 of 299 (593653)
11-28-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:16 AM


Re: Catch 22
The world is full of hard evidence that God exists. Even the heavens declare his existence.
In what way?
We may note that the heavens could declare God's existence if there was a God and if he wanted them to. He could use his magical powers to move stars in such a way that they spelled out: "I EXIST, OK. AND JESUS IS MY SON. GOT THAT?" But either he doesn't exist or for some reason he has chosen not to do so.
Instead the heavens just sit there not declaring God's existence in any obvious way.
Its a choice Meldinoor. No matter what you choose to believe, its going to be by faith.
As has been pointed out, people can't choose their beliefs. I can't believe in the tooth fairy by an effort of will.
Can you really have a design without a designer? Which choice takes the greater faith?
Ah, that would be where you believe without evidence that there is design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:16 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 78 of 299 (593654)
11-28-2010 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Theodoric
11-28-2010 10:51 AM


Re: More of the same BS
You are really good at making big statements. Woefully lacking with any evidence to back them though.
There are hundreds of books outlining the prophecies that Jesus Christ filled. If you are to lazy to do the footwork I'm sure Buzsaw will be covering many of them when he has his Great Debate with Meldinoor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2010 10:51 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2010 11:02 AM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2010 11:08 AM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 82 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2010 11:36 AM ICdesign has replied
 Message 84 by frako, posted 11-28-2010 12:22 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 299 (593656)
11-28-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:59 AM


Re: More of the same BS
There are hundreds of books outlining the prophecies that Jesus Christ filled. If you are to lazy to do the footwork I'm sure Buzsaw will be covering many of them when he has his Great Debate with Meldinoor.
What does this have to do with your claim that: "Even the heavens declare his existence", which is what you were being called on?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:59 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 299 (593657)
11-28-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:54 AM


Re: Design without a designer?
However you offer no evidence that the images show something designed by God.
In addition, you did not address the question.
The issue is whether there is any disadvantage to an experience such as Meldinoor went through?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:54 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 81 of 299 (593658)
11-28-2010 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:59 AM


And the BS continues
There are hundreds of books outlining the prophecies that Jesus Christ filled. If you are to lazy to do the footwork
I have read a lot of the claptrap you and your ilk try to peddle. Not buying.
You made the assertions, but evidently you are not confident enough in them and are to chickenshit to back them.
I will take this as your concession that you can not back either of these statements with any semblance of a cogent argument.
Jesus Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies just himself.
The world is full of hard evidence that God exists. Even the heavens declare his existence.
It is obvious you are unwilling and unable to back up the crap you spout. I think others will also see that it is useless to try to engage you in any meaningful discussion at all.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:59 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 82 of 299 (593659)
11-28-2010 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:59 AM


Re: More of the same BS
You make the statement about fulfilled prophesies, therefore it is up to you to back them up with evidence.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:59 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 12:22 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 83 of 299 (593661)
11-28-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by bluescat48
11-28-2010 11:36 AM


Re: More of the same BS
bluescat48 writes:
You make the statement about fulfilled prophesies, therefore it is up to you to back them up with evidence.
......here are just a few...
Old Testament Prophecy // New Testament Fulfillment
Isaiah 52: 13&14 // John 19:1-3
Micah 5:2 // Matthew 2:1
Isaiah 7:14 // Matthew 1: 18-21
Daniel 9:25 // Galatians 4:4
Genesis 49:10 // Luke 3:23-38
Zechariah 9:9 // Matthew 21 1-4
Edited by ICDESIGN, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2010 11:36 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by frako, posted 11-28-2010 12:23 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 86 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2010 12:39 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 88 by GDR, posted 11-28-2010 12:47 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 91 by bluescat48, posted 11-28-2010 3:02 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 94 by hERICtic, posted 11-28-2010 4:04 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 95 by dwise1, posted 11-28-2010 4:25 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 84 of 299 (593662)
11-28-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:59 AM


Re: More of the same BS
There are hundreds of books outlining the prophecies that Jesus Christ filled. If you are to lazy to do the footwork I'm sure Buzsaw will be covering many of them when he has his Great Debate with Meldinoor.
You made the claim it is you who has to provide the evidence.
Though i would love to tare your claims to shreds if you start a new tread furfilled prophecies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:59 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 85 of 299 (593663)
11-28-2010 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 12:22 PM


Re: More of the same BS
......here are just a few...
Old Testament Prophecy / New Testament Fulfillment
Isaiah 52: 13&14 John 19:1-3
Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1: 18-21
Daniel 9:25 Galatians 4:4
Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:23-38
Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21 1-4
You want me to look at the bible in all of those places you would not be so deer and write what those prophecies say would you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 12:22 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 86 of 299 (593665)
11-28-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 12:22 PM


Topic please
You have been asked to open an on topic discussion. This is off topic here. Please start a thread so we can discuss this on topic.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 12:22 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 87 of 299 (593666)
11-28-2010 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:16 AM


Re: Catch 22
ICDESIGN writes:
Even the heavens declare his existence. You are standing there looking at the design claiming it only "appears" to be design.
Actually, I'm standing here, looking at the world and claiming that it does not even appear to be designed. If I thought it appeared to be designed, then I wouldn't have a problem with it being designed. Unfortunately, for a whole boatload of reasons (that belong in a different thread), it doesn't really appear to be designed at all.
ICDESIGN writes:
Can you really have a design without a designer?
See above.
ICDESIGN writes:
He answers a prayer in your life and you claim it only "appears" like he answered my prayer.
The only apparent thing about answers to prayer, is that I prayed for something, and it happened. Supernatural forces have never been particularly apparent as causes of these answers to prayer.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:16 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by nwr, posted 11-28-2010 3:49 PM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 103 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 8:03 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 88 of 299 (593667)
11-28-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 12:22 PM


Re: More of the same BS
ICDESIGN writes:
Old Testament Prophecy // New Testament Fulfillment
I think that many of the deconversion experiences happen because people find the Bible contradictory and inaccurate. I suggest that you are trying to prove your case by proving the accuracy of the Bible which in my view is misguided.
The Christian faith does not depend on the scientific and historical accuracy of the whole Bible.
Paul has it correct when he writes in his first letter to the Corinthians that "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith also is in vain".
The first Christian churches were formed solely because the early disciples believed that the bodily resurrection of Jesus was an historical event. If they were wrong then all of Christianity is a sham and it becomes either a social movement or a Jewish sect.
If Jesus Christ was raised from the dead then does it really matter if the flood was historical or metaphorical? The Bible is not our God.
The Christian faith started with the resurrection and is sustained by it. If it isn’t true then my life would be much better spent in other pursuits. I believe that N T Wright makes a very convincing argument although obviously there might be one or two on this forum that would disagree.
I think that many of us in the west have gotten too hung up on trying to make the Bible into something that God never intended and have wound up not seeing the forest for the trees. JMHO

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 12:22 PM ICdesign has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by nwr, posted 11-28-2010 3:55 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 299 (593669)
11-28-2010 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 10:16 AM


ICDESIGN writes:
No matter what you choose to believe, its going to be by faith.
It's more like what you wish to believe. A lot of people wish they could believe in a Sky Daddy who meets all of their needs. Some of them manage to delude themselves that it's true.
Real faith isn't just wishful thinking though. It isn't just repeating, "I do, I do, I do believe in spooks." It isn't just hoping that God will solve all of your problems for you.
Real faith is believing that there is a solution, even if you have to go out and look for it yourself. When faith works, that's how it works.
The wishful thinkers tend to be the most vociferous advocates of "faith" - and also the most effective missionaries for unbelief.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 10:16 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 90 of 299 (593675)
11-28-2010 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
11-28-2010 10:14 AM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Hi Buz,
Buzsaw writes:
This would avoid duplicating material already posted. It would also afford us both the opportunity to debate arguments already posted and to interject new points pertaining to our respective positions.
It's your call, Buz, although I do have a few problems with that OP as it stands.
The first problem is the fact that most of the prophecies that you reference in it have yet to be fulfilled. Now, you might make the case that the current situation in the Middle East could easily lead to the fulfillment of prophecy, but it seems to me that prophecy that has already been fulfilled would be a bit less speculative, and make a stronger case for the divine inspiration of the prophets.
Secondly, I'd prefer if you cited the relevant bible verses whenever you present an interpretation of scripture. The OP contains a lot of summaries and explanations of entire chapters, but very few actual bible citations to back up your interpretation of the scriptures. I'm not saying that your interpretations are necessarily flawed or unsupported by the text, but citing specific passages eliminates the very probable waste of time that is sifting through a chapter to figure out just which verses support our arguments.
I think I'd prefer a new OP, all things considered. But you're the one presenting the case for God's existence, so I will let you choose how to do so.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 11-28-2010 10:14 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 11-28-2010 7:20 PM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 11-29-2010 7:20 AM Meldinoor has not replied

  
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