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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
GDR
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 106 of 299 (593724)
11-28-2010 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by nwr
11-28-2010 7:58 PM


Re: More of the same BS
nwr writes:

I was fine with the teachings of Jesus. But too much of Christian theology seemed inconsistent those teachings.

I believe that to be the nub of the problem. I know this sounds prideful, but it is my view that there is a great deal of bad theology around and that is very often what gets rejected. Case in point is the post by dwise1 above. If it was necessary for me to believe everything in the OT literally I wouldn't be a Christian either. I believe that there is a great deal to be gleaned from the OT but in my view it was never intended to be read like a text book.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nwr, posted 11-28-2010 7:58 PM nwr has seen this message

  
articulett
Member (Idle past 2601 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


(1)
Message 107 of 299 (593725)
11-28-2010 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 8:03 PM


Re: Catch 22
Certainly any "design" is flawed, right? You admit humans are imperfect. If an intelligent designer created life, he created it imperfectly. And if you believe the Jesus story than this imperfect designer tries to "fix" his imperfect designs by flooding the earth (which didn't work) and then having his son (who is really him) sacrificed (to himself) to try and fix the flaws which he should have known about if omniscient.

Nature is cruel, wasteful, and contains a lot of suffering, malformation, deformations, and less than optimal design. It also takes eons to evolve an eye and then eons to devolve them away when they aren't needed any more-- and the DNA from their existence still remains in the organism as do many useless genes. Why not just poof eyes into existence as needed and then away when the designer decides the creature should move underground or in caves where eyes are a liability? And why not just poof out good eyes to those born blind who need eyes? And why all the sex (unless the intelligent designer likes watching) when the designer can just poof out the life forms he wants as needed? Why would a man make trillions of sperm in his life time? That seems like a wasteful design to me when only so few are needed to make gods favorite "designs".

How is that indicative of the god you've been indoctrinated to believe in? Why would your god give primates a nonworking vitamin C gene? How does that figure into the design hypothesis exactly? Is the "intelligent designer" a bumbler? A trickster? Does he just like to make it look like things evolved slowly over eons without any help from anything intelligent?

Are you really able to convince yourself that life on earth is the result of an omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent invisible designer? Why would he bother making material beings if our true nature is immaterial-- and how are we created in his image if he is invisible? Why not just skip to the immaterial eternity part that he supposedly already knows is going to happen? Why pain, suffering, angst, fear, hunger-- and all that other stuff that seems intricately tied up with having a physical body and physical brain? And if god can make perfect people (Jesus), why didn't he make them all that way?

If your intelligent designer created everything, why did he create sin, hell, a devil, imperfect beings, pain, deformations, suffering, etc.? If he could have chosen to prevent the existence of such things, why didn't he? And if he can fix these mistakes, isn't it just cruel, not to? Why would you worship any being that creates creatures knowing that they can suffer forever? What would be the point of that? Or have I just interpreted the bible wrong?

If there was no "intelligent designer" would you want to know, or is that too scary to even think about?

Edited by articulett, : No reason given.

Edited by articulett, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 8:03 PM ICdesign has taken no action

Replies to this message:
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articulett
Member (Idle past 2601 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


Message 108 of 299 (593728)
11-28-2010 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by GDR
11-28-2010 10:13 PM


Re: More of the same BS
What exactly do you think happened regarding this so-called resurrection? Did Jesus rise from the dead, open his tomb and walk about town causing other dead folk to do the same? Or did he just float up to the sky? Was he zombie like with his wounds (so that doubting Thomas could touch them) or was he all poofed back into unwounded form? If you looked into the sky could you see him floating up? How can heaven be "up" if we live on a round earth? Humans on earth don't have the same "up". How many people do you think saw Jesus after he died and came back to life? Why are there no contemporary accounts of this amazing occurrence? Did Paul see a reanimated corpse or just a vision? What exactly counts as a resurrection and do you know how many people (and gods) there are resurrection accounts for? Do you think any other resurrections actually happened? Why is the resurrection so important to the story? Doesn't that make the whole sacrifice thing a lot less of a sacrifice? Does the crucifixion only save those that believe in the crucifixion? Does this mean Christians can sin freely now that their sins are paid for while the non believers will be punished just because they don't believe? Even when I was a theist the story never made sense. (My solution, at the time, was not to think about it much, lest I lose my faith.)

And one more thing... why does the story say he rose on the third day?-- If he was crucified good Friday and rose Easter Sunday morning-- that isn't even 2 days. How do you decide what to believe is true, and why would a god care more about what you believe than what you do?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by GDR, posted 11-28-2010 10:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 11-29-2010 12:00 AM articulett has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4037 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


(1)
Message 109 of 299 (593729)
11-28-2010 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICdesign
11-28-2010 8:03 PM


My view on design
Hello ICDESIGN,

I realize that the design of nature is very apparent to you. It's not simply that you have faith that nature is designed, everything you see reinforces that belief. The beauty of the stars on a moonless night, the shrill voices of baby birds in a nest, and the colors of a summer meadow all speak to you of an intelligent designer. Oh, and there's your favorite topic of discussion as well, the inner workings of the human body.

I'm not denying that nature can appear designed on a very superficial level, and when viewed selectively. However, when viewed from a fuller perspective the appearance of design falls away.
First of all, if one believes life on earth to be the end goal of creation, one might ask oneself why it was placed in such an inconsequential part of an absurdly large universe. Next, one might notice the chaos out there: galaxies colliding and ripping each other apart, supernovas, gamma rays, black holes, and life-threatening collisions between planets and other bodies. All these factors pose a serious threat to our existence as a species, although "fortunately" our lives are so short that the probability of these rare devastating events occurring in any given generation is vanishingly small.
But then there are natural disasters that occur on a much more frequent scale. The earth's climate is not stable, sometimes leading to periods of severe weather like ice ages, or widespread drought. Earthquakes have killed millions of people throughout history. Volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, and tsunamis are all examples of completely natural disasters that have killed countless people and other creatures. It is no wonder that at least 98% (not an exaggeration!) of all species on this planet have gone extinct. Which, by the way, makes you wonder how cramped the planet would be if they had all shared this earth at the same time. And I'm not even going to get started on epidemics, parasites, and predation.
Most creationists I've talked to try to justify the chaos and destruction evident in nature by automatically bringing up the Fall whenever they don't like something about the world. However, even if the Bible did describe a complete remodeling of the entire universe (it doesn't) after the fall, biblical justification doesn't enter into the argument. They're claiming that the world looks designed for human life, and I point out why it doesn't. No matter how you cut it, the fact remains that in the present day it is a chaotic mess without the appearance of a benevolent designer.

Then there's the rather silly and ineffectual "design" of certain organisms and functions and hierarchical nesting of all life, but I realize that this is getting very off topic, so I will digress no further.

ICDESIGN writes:

What exactly is your definition of a design and please give me an example of something that would meet that
criteria.

A design is something created by an intelligent being, for an intelligent purpose. My post is an example of something that was designed, though I sometimes wonder about the intelligence of the designer

I hope that clears up why I don't think the universe is designed. This really isn't the place to begin a lengthy discussion about design, and I'd be happy to discuss any of the things that I have brought up in a separate thread.

Respectfully,

-Meldinoor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ICdesign, posted 11-28-2010 8:03 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 110 of 299 (593733)
11-29-2010 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by articulett
11-28-2010 11:09 PM


Re: More of the same BS
articulet writes:

And one more thing... why does the story say he rose on the third day?-- If he was crucified good Friday and rose Easter Sunday morning-- that isn't even 2 days.

I suppose that if they were making it all up then they would have had all their ducks in a row and made sure that everything was spot on. They didn't which is a pretty good indication that they just passed on things as they saw them

articulett writes:

How do you decide what to believe is true, and why would a god care more about what you believe than what you do?

I make my decisions on what I believe pretty much the same as everyone else, and one of the things that I believe is that God is much more concerned about not so much what I do but whether I humbly love kindness and do justice. If you read the Bible it's pretty clear that it is what makes us right with God and not our theology.

You are actually making my point for me that what is so often rejected is a misrepresentation of the scriptures.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by articulett, posted 11-28-2010 11:09 PM articulett has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 6:45 PM GDR has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4037 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 111 of 299 (593741)
11-29-2010 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dawn Bertot
11-28-2010 7:48 PM


Hi Dawn,

To be fair, some posters here are prone to foul-mouthing and ridiculing their opponents. A few will do so at the tip of a hat, others only after they become sufficiently frustrated or annoyed by their opponent's arguments/behavior/whatever. Most people who participate here realize that this is a public internet forum, and participate here with the expectation that their views will be scrutinized, picked apart, and yes, even ridiculed.

Curiously, the only people I ever see complaining about abuse are creationists. A very small minority of them, mind you. Other creationists, like slevesque (who is a moderator by the way), Buzsaw, ICANT, ICDESIGN, just to name a few off the top of my head, are generally very respectful, and do seem to be prepared to have their beliefs challenged by both the more civil, and the more acerbic, members without whining about it. But a few make it their MO to whine about unfair treatment in just about every post they write.

One example that comes to mind is a user who is no longer very active here. In one discussion I spent a couple of hours writing up a lengthy post responding to a number of arguments he had presented. His reply did not even touch on what I wrote. Instead he responded with ridicule and indignation, and then, ironically, went on to complain about us "evolutionists" and how unfair we are. This was a pattern that applied to essentially all of his "contributions" to this forum, and he's probably the only participant here that I've been happy to see leave.

So please, stop whining about belittlement and ridicule, and grow some backbone. Evolutionists do not have a monopoly on meanness and ridicule, and it makes me angry whenever a creationist on this forum makes blanket statements to that effect. What does it accomplish?

Alright, now I've got that off my chest. Back on topic:

Dawn Bertot writes:

But to keep on topic here I can say I have never seen a single "argument" presented by evos or atheist that even began to sway my beliefs even slightly in the opposite direction

And why's that do you think? Because the worlds most brilliant scientists (even Christian ones) accept the theory of evolution on a basis that's inherently unconvincing? If so, why are so many smart and well-educated people, including Christians, utterly convinced by the arguments for it?

Or is it because you possess knowledge that these people do not? If so, you should share it with the world, starting right here with this forum.

Perhaps the reason why you find evolutionist arguments completely unconvincing is that you've already made up your mind what it is you believe, and any further argument is ultimately not going to change that. It could be, for example, that you have faith in a Divine Designer, accompanied by a faith in evil forces intent upon clouding the minds of men and making them rebel against said Designer by embracing falsehoods about the universe.

Or it may be none of the above. I'm sure you'll elaborate if that's the case.

Dawn Bertot writes:

... ask them to provide the same type of evidence for those issues I presented above and watch the excuses and complaints start to fly

Yes indeed, by all means, ask away. It'd be downright boring if you guys didn't take me to task on defending my beliefs. It wouldn't be much of a debate then, would it?

Dawn Bertot writes:

But amazingly no one will step up to the plate

Really?

-Meldinoor

Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

Edited by Meldinoor, : Removed some sarcastic stuff


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 112 of 299 (593752)
11-29-2010 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by GDR
11-28-2010 10:13 PM


Re: More of the same BS
But that isn't what is meant by resurrection. What you are talking about is resuscitation.

And you know that is not what happened because?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by GDR, posted 11-28-2010 10:13 PM GDR has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 113 of 299 (593757)
11-29-2010 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Meldinoor
11-28-2010 1:51 PM


Re: Great Debate Proposal
Do read the thread where you will see Buz's claims demolished.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Meldinoor, posted 11-28-2010 1:51 PM Meldinoor has taken no action

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4027 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 114 of 299 (593763)
11-29-2010 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Meldinoor
11-28-2010 11:12 PM


Re: My view on design
Meldinoor writes:

A design is something created by an intelligent being, for an intelligent purpose. My post is an example of something that was designed

...WOW! I guess that says it all for me. No need to go any further down this barren trail.

I wish you luck Meldinoor
IC


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Meldinoor, posted 11-28-2010 11:12 PM Meldinoor has taken no action

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 1640 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


(1)
Message 115 of 299 (593786)
11-29-2010 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Meldinoor
11-26-2010 1:19 AM


Hey there Meldinoor,

I now consider myself something of an agnostic...

You know, when I first started lurking here a while back, I was just beginning my journey away from Christianity (and religion in general). I recall reading through a number of your posts and thinking that here was someone who was very similar to myself, both in temperament, theology, and (if you'll allow) reason and intelligence. I was a little further along in my deconversion, and thus my views, when it came to still actively having faith in a creator while at the same time accepting evolution, were slightly less cognitively dissonant than yours were at that point (it seemed to me, anyway). But after my deconversion, in taking stock of all the reasonable theists who post at EVC who would posit thought-provoking and rational arguments in support of a (decidedly moderate) viewpoint, you were surely at the top of the heap.

To see that you've "come around" to, IMO, the most rational and reasonable position gives those of us who still harbor a tiny bit of discomfort with our deconversion some encouragement.

Let me explain. It's a little of the Pascal's Wager that lurks in the back of my mind. The feeling that I just may be wrong (as if that's not textbook agnosticism ) and thus will burn in the fires of hell forever is a bit disconcerting. I'll be honest, however: I believe I'm correct in that all that we see has absolutely no indication of the designing hand of a creator (cue ICDESIGN guffaws), but I also understand that what I believe has no bearing on reality. This, of course, is where the irrationality of magick and the supernatural turned me off to religion. I couldn't rationally reconcile what we see in nature with OT myths, and from there I discounted everything from the Exodus (as written) to the story of Jonah. And from there, it wasn't too large of a leap to "unbelieve" the story of the resurrection (if all those other stories were fiction, elegantly written and sometimes contradictory, in context and out, then how could I hang on to the most important miracle of them all?), and the idea of a "god" as well.

All this is so...reasonable. And yet, and yet, it still feels uncomfortable. Now I'm sure the rest of you theists will trot out the 'ol canard about how this is God leading me back, or some such nonsense, when of course it's merely neurotransmitters and emotional response.

But the fact that I believe it is not God tinkering with my head matters not to that fact that it's difficult to "unlearn" 25 years of indoctrination. I was brought up in a decidedly moderate Methodist church, and although my parents were (and still are) active in the church, they were never excessively religious. Creation never made sense to me back then, but the 'rents just told me there are things which we were not meant to understand. Obviously, this didn't work for me, and I endeavored to learn all I could about this universe (and others). My faith was flagging, and continued to do so for another 15 years or so, when I stumbled onto this site after googling "Literal Genesis". At about this same time, my brother and sister-in-law moved to the area and convinced my wife to have us begin attending a plant Calvary-chapel (of the Chuck Smith persuasion) church. This was my first exposure to a YEC theology, and, needless to say, the pastor's opinion and teaching that "...of course Noah took baby dinosaurs on the ark because full grown dinos wouldn't fit, silly..." pushed me right over the edge.

An agnostic was born, bathed in reason, and relieved. Relieved that no longer was cognitive dissonance a hindrance to both my theology and scientific learning. Relieved that, although it was harder to understand that I may very well not spend eternity (!) with my family, I never again need to be concerned about eternity at all! So back to the Pascal's Wager thing: even though it niggles in the back of my mind, reason prevails and Pascal fails.

You're not alone in your insecurity, but it gets easier. I'm in the same boat as you are: my family knows nothing of this. Call it cowardly, but believe me when I say that it would crush my wife. Not that she's overly religious, but she can't conceive of an existence without an afterlife which she can spend with her family. If she knew that I'd not be spending timeless forever with her (I love my wife, but I don't think I can conceive of spending eternity with anyone) I think she'd have a harder time with it than I'm willing to force on her. I'm content, personally, having my own views but sparing her the anguish. Same goes with most of the rest of my family. Some of them, I believe, have some clue but choose to not contemplate it. Whatever floats their boat, as far as I'm concerned, but if I'm not vocal about this in order to avoid the drama and pain it would cause others, I'm OK with that. But that's just my own circumstance...

Anyway, sorry for the rambling, but let me just say good for you, Meldinoor. The fact that you've been honest with yourself is admirable, and I commend you for it. To me, my deconversion was one of the hardest and most rewarding life changes that I've ventured upon, and from what I've read in your posts, it seems you feel the same. Good luck.

Have a good one.


"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Meldinoor, posted 11-26-2010 1:19 AM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 11-29-2010 2:02 PM Apothecus has replied
 Message 118 by nwr, posted 11-29-2010 2:43 PM Apothecus has taken no action
 Message 119 by Meldinoor, posted 11-29-2010 5:35 PM Apothecus has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 116 of 299 (593791)
11-29-2010 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Apothecus
11-29-2010 1:12 PM


Apothecus writes:

The feeling that I just may be wrong (as if that's not textbook agnosticism ) and thus will burn in the fires of hell forever is a bit disconcerting.

I know I keep beating the same drum but this is another example of someone rejecting a Christianity that isn't even scriptural. You don't go to hell because you get your theology wrong. I have no doubt that everyone that has ever existed has had their theology screwed up one way or another which means damnation for all of us.

The Bible is clear that what makes us righteous with God is that we have humble loving hearts. I imagine some on this forum will say that we are justified by faith. I would agree, but the question is faith in what. They would probably say faith in Jesus. I would again agree; but what does that mean?

For the sake of argument let's say I was an American democrat and that I believe in Obama. That doesn't mean that I believe he exists; it doesn't mean I believe that he is President; it does mean though that I believe in what he stands for.

Yes I put my faith in Christ. Yes I believe He was Messiah and God incarnate but anyone can believe that and ignore His message of love, truth, forgiveness, justice, mercy etc. Read Matthew 25 and the sheep and goats metaphor. It is those that with humble hearts fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the prisons etc that were right with God.

Here is a quote from James Chap 2.

quote:
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.


I would go so far to suggest that just possibly you are closer to God now than you were before your so called deconversion. (I have no real way of knowing that but you obviously have rejected the legalism that you have encountered and maybe through that you have taken on a more authentic love of the goodness of God.)

I see the Bible as a gift from God but it isn’t God. WE have been given the gift of reason and we are to use that reason to interpret what the Bible has to tell us.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Apothecus, posted 11-29-2010 1:12 PM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Apothecus, posted 11-29-2010 2:33 PM GDR has replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 1640 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 117 of 299 (593796)
11-29-2010 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by GDR
11-29-2010 2:02 PM


Thanks for the reply, GDR,

I think you're one of the aforementioned "reasonable" theists posting on EVC for whom I have the utmost respect. But I've heard you beat this drum before as well, and although it's a very nice sounding drum, it has quite a different beat than most of the teachings that I've encountered regarding the bible, and salvation especially.

What I'm stating is that since I can find no reason to believe, or to have faith, in a supernatural entity which can (by definition) be neither felt nor seen with any measure of surety, I choose to not believe in said entity. This is where faith comes in, yes?

...this is another example of someone rejecting a Christianity that isn't even scriptural. You don't go to hell because you get your theology wrong.

Au contraire. I'd love to say that most of Christianity agrees with you, but all of the teaching I've ever encountered says something to the tune of, "No one is saved but through the blood of Christ." No amount of worldly works (which are important, of course) will see you throught the pearly gates, if you have not a belief that you are saved by Christ's sacrifice. This is what I'm talking about: although I respect and admire the teachings of Christ and live my life as Christ-like (if such a man existed) as possible, I don't believe in the literal resurrection/miracles etc...which in most Christian theology is a one-way ticket to Hades. Do you disagree with this?

Yes I put my faith in Christ. Yes I believe He was Messiah and God incarnate but anyone can believe that and ignore His message of love, truth, forgiveness, justice, mercy etc.

You're right. The type of Christian who ignores all of those things but claims to still be saved was never the type of Christian that I used to be. So we can rest assured we're similar in that aspect; what differs is that I no longer have faith that Christ died and was raised from the dead. Nor do I have faith that there is a God who made it happen, all morality aside.

I would go so far to suggest that just possibly you are closer to God now than you were before your so called deconversion. (I have no real way of knowing that but you obviously have rejected the legalism that you have encountered and maybe through that you have taken on a more authentic love of the goodness of God.)

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not sure what type of logic led you here... You've lost me there, GDR. Sure, I've shed the legalism, but in the process I've also gotten rid of a whole lot more than that, including...wait for it...GOD! So are you suggesting more along the lines of a subconscious type of God-closeness thing?


"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 11-29-2010 2:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by GDR, posted 11-29-2010 9:51 PM Apothecus has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5968
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 118 of 299 (593798)
11-29-2010 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Apothecus
11-29-2010 1:12 PM


Apothecus writes:
And yet, and yet, it still feels uncomfortable.

That's part of what sustains religion. It is really just group psychology. We evolved as social creatures, and our way of life is dependent on some degree of social cooperation. So, quite naturally, we are influenced by others in the group. Your discomfort is because you have moved in a direction that is inconsistent with the expectations of the group.

Apothecus writes:
Creation never made sense to me back then, but the 'rents just told me there are things which we were not meant to understand.

That "not meant to understand" doesn't work very well with people who have an interest in science and in asking the hard questions.

Apothecus writes:
I'm in the same boat as you are: my family knows nothing of this. Call it cowardly, but believe me when I say that it would crush my wife.

I don't consider that cowardly. It is part of our responsibility, as social beings, that we should not unduly burden others with facts that are mostly personal in nature. That's a situation that calls for thoughtful judgment, and you do seem to have thought it through.


Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4037 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 119 of 299 (593811)
11-29-2010 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Apothecus
11-29-2010 1:12 PM


Thanks for sharing your experience, Apothecus. I remember when you joined EvC you came across as a skeptical person who wasn't afraid to question your faith, and I wasn't entirely sure where to place you on the theist-agnostic-atheist scale. I saw things a little more black-and-white back then, since I hadn't yet come to appreciate the gray-scale that lies between faith and non-faith.

I also appreciate the solidarity that comes of others having similar experiences. When I started this topic I was unsure how my deconversion would compare to those of other ex-Christians. Now I am, well, kind of relieved that my experience was by no means unique, and I recognize elements from your experience, as well as cavediver and others who have responded.

As far as admitting my departure from the faith to loved ones, I do feel cowardly for not having done so. OTOH, it's only been a couple weeks, and during that time the topic has never come up. I see no reason to make a public announcement just for the sake of announcing it, as long as I don't have to live a lie. If I'm asked outright, I'll probably just tell the truth, as tactfully as I can manage.
But I agree with you completely, it's important to consider the impact it will have on family. I'm not married, so I that makes it a lot easier for me to come out. I'm actually reminded of Darwin, who was so sensitive to his wife's beliefs that he put off publishing his theory for many years. At least that was part of the reason he waited with it.

Anyways, I do wish you all the best in overcoming whatever difficulties your ongoing experience is causing you, and I hope you'll be able to steer clear of any resulting fallout with friends and family. Haha, I almost felt tempted to write "I'll pray for you"... Damn! Now I've gotta find something else meaningless to tell people I'll do for them, when really I'm powerless to offer anything but encouragement.

-Meldinoor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Apothecus, posted 11-29-2010 1:12 PM Apothecus has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 6:49 PM Meldinoor has taken no action

  
articulett
Member (Idle past 2601 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


Message 120 of 299 (593823)
11-29-2010 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by GDR
11-29-2010 12:00 AM


Re: More of the same BS
GDR writes:

I make my decisions on what I believe pretty much the same as everyone else, and one of the things that I believe is that God is much more concerned about not so much what I do but whether I humbly love kindness and do justice. If you read the Bible it's pretty clear that it is what makes us right with God and not our theology.

I've read the bible, and as I recall, that is not what made Abraham right with god-- being willing to kill his son upon god's orders is what did so.

I think you may be cherry picking regarding how one makes oneself "right with God"....

When one imagines their eternity depends upon following some god's will, they will do anything they can be convinced that god wants, right? Especially if they believe the punishment for disobedience is eternal suffering


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 11-29-2010 12:00 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by GDR, posted 11-29-2010 10:16 PM articulett has replied

  
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