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Author Topic:   Potential falsifications of the theory of evolution
Taq
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Message 285 of 968 (592334)
11-19-2010 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Minnemooseus
11-18-2010 8:29 PM


Re: Potential falsifications
You can be damn sure that I wasn't probing for real (major) falsifications when I started this topic. I know that such possibilities are very slim at best, and even then, it isn't going to be the creation side that comes up with such.
Perhaps extrasolar planets would be a good analogy.
We haven't "directly" observed an extrasolar planet to date. What we have observed are stars that wobble quite a bit with no apparent binary star to cause the wobble. We also observe that some stars dim from time to time. Extrasolar planets explain all of these observations really, really well. I think most of us would be absolutely floored if all of these observations were actually caused by something other than extrasolar planets.
Such is the case with evolution. We see all of the evidence we should see if evolution is true, right down to the order of bases in DNA. Evolution explains all of these observations really, really well.

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Taq
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Message 325 of 968 (593805)
11-29-2010 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Kaichos Man
11-27-2010 4:23 AM


Re: Potential falsifications
Hm. Lack of fossil evidence of transitional species?
The theory of evolution says nothing about the process of fossilization. The theory only states what types of species must have existed, specifically what types of transitionals should have existed. The theory also states what types of transitionals we should NOT see. So if you find a fossil with a mixture of avian and mammalian derived features then you will have falsified the theory.
You can only test the theory with the fossils we do have, not with the fossils we don't have.
Let's see- we have unicellular creatures by the number, even a few bicellular (mainly yeast). Next step up the ladder is eight-celled, but they're parasites who do not yet have a host so they don't count in the ascent of life. Next step up is twenty-two celled. So we have to believe that life jumped unaided from two to twenty-two cells, or that there were intermediate creatures that have since become extinct (despite the fact that their simplicity made them very durable) without leaving any fossil trace at all.
Or we can believe our observations of species making the jump from a single cell to 4 to 32 cells, finally stabilizing at 8 cells in the matter of a geologic eye blink.
"Boraas (1983) reported the induction of multicellularity in a strain of Chlorella pyrenoidosa (since reclassified as C. vulgaris) by predation. He was growing the unicellular green alga in the first stage of a two stage continuous culture system as for food for a flagellate predator, Ochromonas sp., that was growing in the second stage. Due to the failure of a pump, flagellates washed back into the first stage. Within five days a colonial form of the Chlorella appeared. It rapidly came to dominate the culture. The colony size ranged from 4 cells to 32 cells. Eventually it stabilized at 8 cells. This colonial form has persisted in culture for about a decade. The new form has been keyed out using a number of algal taxonomic keys. They key out now as being in the genus Coelosphaerium, which is in a different family from Chlorella."
Observed Instances of Speciation
The chance assembly of a single reproducing genome? 1 to 10 followed by 4,200 zeros? And that's not counting a cell membrane, protoplasm, organelles, mitochondria, plasmids etc?
Falsification is not based on things we have not observed, but on things we HAVE observed. You do know how falsification works, don't you?

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
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Message 346 of 968 (596187)
12-13-2010 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Kaichos Man
12-11-2010 12:11 AM


Re: Potential falsifications
Are you suggesting that these two papers allow the Wikipedia troll to continue to claim that Haldane's Dilemma has been solved?
The whole point is that Haldane was never able to show that there really is a dilemma. Haldane lacked sequence data, the very thing he was trying to model.
Before you ask for solutions to a problem perhaps you should demonstrate that there is a problem to begin with.
Evolutionists can't show how RM/NS can create a single enzyme,
Sure you have been told about the nylonase gene?
http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm
There is also Hall's EBG (evolved beta-galactosidase):
The EBG system of E. coli: origin and evolution of a novel beta-galactosidase for the metabolism of lactose - PubMed
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 353 of 968 (598907)
01-03-2011 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by ICANT
01-03-2011 10:34 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull.
We have also presented the fact that the theory of evolution predicts that those creatures with those particular skulls should have existed if the theory of evolution is true. Therefore, these skulls are evidence for the theory of evolution.
Why don't you take your dog and pony show to a court room sometime. You can tell the jury that those fingerprints are not evidence against your client. OH NO, that can't be. Those swirls of oil are just that, swirls of oil. You can conclude what you want from those swirls, but it will be nothing more than your interpretation and not science, right?
Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion.
Yes, a well evidenced and scientific conclusion. That's our point.

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
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Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 358 of 968 (599188)
01-05-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by arachnophilia
01-04-2011 11:04 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
oh, and that smoking gun and the dna? you'll just have to ignore those, as a 99.99% match isn't exactly conclusive.
The DNA evidence is best explained by a common designer, not a common source. Obviously, the creator of my client also produced the DNA at the crime scene.

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
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Message 363 of 968 (599797)
01-10-2011 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by ICANT
01-09-2011 12:34 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
1. Macroevolution is evolution above the the species level.
2. There are no first hand accounts to be read. (There is no direct evidence we can produce).
3. Once we figure out what evolutionary events we think happned. We try to figure out how we think it happened.
How is this any different than using forensic evidence to recreate the commission of a crime that has no eyewitness? How is this any different than matching a suspect's DNA to the crime scene and then figuring out why the suspect did it?

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Taq
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Message 366 of 968 (599963)
01-11-2011 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by ICANT
01-11-2011 11:16 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
If you don't like the words that are enlarged and bolded why don't you take it up with Berkely?
I don't have a problem with the following:
"Once we've figured out what evolutionary events have taken place, we try to figure out how they happened."
We have figured out that humans and chimps share a common ancestor and that both humans and chimps evolved from that common ancestor. Genetics and the fossil record are clear on this. Now we are trying to figure out the environmental pressures that resulted in the divergence of these two lineages. Don't you agree?

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Taq
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Message 390 of 968 (600086)
01-12-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Dawn Bertot
01-12-2011 11:14 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
If they are a recent species it just seems odd that none survived.
Why does that seem odd? When looking at the fossil record and the history of life on Earth, extinction is the rule, not the exception.
where are the mass graves or such creatures? why do we have to depend on fragments and things pieced together, where literally thousands of examples should be present
When something dies it usually dies on the surface where it is scavenged and disarticulated. Frankly, we are lucky to have the pieces we do have.
I mean dinos were what, 60 to 100 million years ago and we have no problem finding the OVERWHELMING evidence we need to confirm thier actual existence
And we have no problem finding overwhelming evidence of transitional hominid species. Your point?

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Taq
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Message 392 of 968 (600089)
01-12-2011 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Dawn Bertot
01-12-2011 10:40 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
So where are Gorrillas, Apes and Orangatanges in this process (no funny shots here either)
They are in the same spot as your cousins are with respect to the transtion from your grandparents to you.
Shouldnt those other things that you provided as examples have survived in some small way, if indeed they actually existed? Shouldnt they just keep going along side the whole Evo process even if changes were taking place?
Why don't we see both Elephants and Wooly Mammoths?

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
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Member Rating: 5.3


Message 396 of 968 (600096)
01-12-2011 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ICANT
01-12-2011 12:17 PM


Re: Transmutation
As I look at the so called tree of life many of the limbs and branches are missing. There is no root that exist as we don't know what produced the first life form.
Back to the OP . . .
And yet none of these fossil species violate the branching pattern. That is what evidences evolution (and also allows it to be falsifiable). We do not see any bird-mammal transitional fossils that have a mixture of bird and mammal features. What we do see are the transitionals that evolution predicts we should see.
Each fossil we find is a test of the theory. The theory of evolution predicts which combinations of features we should see and which we should not. Therefore, the mixture of characteristics in each fossil can be used to test these predictions. On the other hand, creationism/ID makes no such predictions which makes it unfalsifiable.
Thus there is no root defined.
The root is shared characteristics which are called synapomorphies in cladistics.
People take the final life forms we see today and try to go backwards in time and connect them to one life form to prove evolution took place.
No we don't. We show that all life, both living and dead, fall into a nested hierarchy. That is what evidences evolution. In cladistics no single fossil species is labelled as an ancestor of any living species. All species are linked through shared characteristics which is the synapomorphy.

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 418 of 968 (600193)
01-13-2011 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by barbara
01-12-2011 8:16 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
There is plenty of fossils found in every state in the U.S. of the Pleisocene large mammals: Saber Tooth, Puma/cougar, American Lion, horse, dire wolf, mammoths, mastodon, Cheetahs, some marsupials, Giant beaver and many more.
They have not found any fossils of gorilla and found very few of chimp fossils but yet have found all the different species of human/ape.
We know that both gorillas and chimps exist, so why don't we have any fossils of them? Could it be that some areas of been searched more thoroughly for fossils than others? It is much easier to scrape away the dirt in the dry savannas of Africa than it is to dig up rainforest in the Congo, for example. Also, could it be that some environments are also better at producing fossils to begin with?

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
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Message 419 of 968 (600194)
01-13-2011 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by barbara
01-12-2011 9:01 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Many of the fossils that represent the human lineage look more like chimp skulls then human.
Indeed, they do. However, the pelvis of these species look much more human than chimp. Overall, they have a mixture of modern human and primitive ape features, exactly what you would expect to find if humans evolved from a common ancestor with chimps.
Here is a nice comparison of an Australopithecus pelvis with the pelvis of modern humans and chimps:
The Australipithecus pelvis is squattier and wider. On top of that, the femur starts outside the and angles inwards towards the center line just like in humans. Both of these features are indicative of bipedalism like that seen in humans. Compare this to the chimp pelvis that is taller and skinnier with no inward angle for the femur.

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 420 of 968 (600195)
01-13-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Dawn Bertot
01-13-2011 10:23 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Havent we actually found one of these intact frozen in the ice? I suppose when you can produce an intact hommonid frozen in the ice, you will immediately get my attention
You didn't answer my question. Why don't we see both wooly mammoths and elephants living today?
As for a frozen humanoid:
Otzi:
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/archaeology/otzi_iceman_2.jpg

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 421 of 968 (600196)
01-13-2011 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Dawn Bertot
01-13-2011 10:07 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
many qualified people that DO understand all the "science" disagree with the tenets and conclusions reached by evolutionists
Less than 0.1% of scientists with a degree in the biological sciences disagree with evolution:
CA111: Scientists reject evolution?
I would not call less than 0.1% of scientists "many". On top of that, those who do reject it do so on religious grounds, not scientific.
If evo was true it would not affect creationism.
Then what would?

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Taq
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Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 422 of 968 (600198)
01-13-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by Dawn Bertot
01-13-2011 9:39 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
How do you conclude these facts if there is little or no fossil remains. If there are enough fossil remains wouldnt that confirm it, atleast for the pigeons?
Early settlers in the Americas reported seeing huge flocks of passenger pigeons, so large that it would take hours for the flock to fly over as it dimmed the sun. There is no doubt that there were billions of passenger pigeons when Europeans moved to the Americas. Now there are none. On top of that, we only have a handful of known passenger pigeon fossils. How can this be?

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