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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 2744 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 16 of 255 (593849)
11-29-2010 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
11-29-2010 7:13 PM


Jar writes:

None of the prophecies are even in the New Testament.
All that you say may well be obvious to you and if so, then why not start a thread on it and see if you can support your position, but none of it is relevant to this thread or topic.

The Gospels of course will have exactly the same substance as they do now.

I guess I should have said "fulfilled prophecies". But why start a thread, you're doing all the great work! Very well stated your breakdowns. Not sure how its not relevant to the topic though.

Its been stated there are over 300 prophecies in the OT, which Jesus fufilled. Your taking one at a time, showing how they're not prophecies. Are you then suggesting the events described in the NT actually occured and they're just coincidence, that they match up with verses in the OT? My position is that they're not prophecies, but midrash. Verses taken out of context and stories woven around them.

Im not even sure how you can state that the gospels will have the same substance regardless if they're fulfilled prophecies or midrash.

An apologist will state the events occured. I say the events were make believe stories. Huge difference.

But anyway, I'll step aside. I was serious though. Great thread on your part.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 17 of 255 (593852)
11-29-2010 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by hERICtic
11-29-2010 9:18 PM


Good questions and maybe worth another thread but just not relevant to this topic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by hERICtic, posted 11-29-2010 9:18 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 18 of 255 (593864)
11-29-2010 10:15 PM


Genesis 49:10
The next so called Prophecy fulfilled by Jesus claimed was Genesis 49:10.

quote:
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

But is this a reference to Jesus?

Let's look at Genesis 49:10 in context.

quote:
Genesis 49 (New International Version, ©2010)

Genesis 49
Jacob Blesses His Sons
1 Then Jacob called for his sons and said: “Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come.

2 “Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob;
listen to your father Israel.

3 “Reuben, you are my firstborn,
my might, the first sign of my strength,
excelling in honor, excelling in power.
4 Turbulent as the waters, you will no longer excel,
for you went up onto your father’s bed,
onto my couch and defiled it.

5 “Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords are weapons of violence.
6 Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed men in their anger
and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.
7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob
and disperse them in Israel.

8 “Judah, your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father’s sons will bow down to you.
9 You are a lion’s cub, Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.
11 He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk.

13 “Zebulun will live by the seashore
and become a haven for ships;
his border will extend toward Sidon.

14 “Issachar is a rawboned donkey
lying down among the sheep pens.
15 When he sees how good is his resting place
and how pleasant is his land,
he will bend his shoulder to the burden
and submit to forced labor.

16 “Dan will provide justice for his people
as one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan will be a snake by the roadside,
a viper along the path,
that bites the horse’s heels
so that its rider tumbles backward.

18 “I look for your deliverance, LORD.

19 “Gad will be attacked by a band of raiders,
but he will attack them at their heels.

20 “Asher’s food will be rich;
he will provide delicacies fit for a king.

21 “Naphtali is a doe set free
that bears beautiful fawns.

22 “Joseph is a fruitful vine,
a fruitful vine near a spring,
whose branches climb over a wall.
23 With bitterness archers attacked him;
they shot at him with hostility.
24 But his bow remained steady,
his strong arms stayed limber,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25 because of your father’s God, who helps you,
because of the Almighty, who blesses you
with blessings of the skies above,
blessings of the deep springs below,
blessings of the breast and womb.
26 Your father’s blessings are greater
than the blessings of the ancient mountains,
than the bounty of the age-old hills.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

27 “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf;
in the morning he devours the prey,
in the evening he divides the plunder.”

28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them, giving each the blessing appropriate to him.


Wow, it seems it is about the Twelve Tribes, where they will be located and what their characteristics will be.

And the support that this is a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus is?

A contrived genealogy.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 19 of 255 (593893)
11-30-2010 9:56 AM


Zechariah 9:9
Now we come to the last example that ICDESIGN presented, Zechariah 9:9.

Zechariah (it is likely that the Book of Zachariah is actually written by two or three different writers over a period of as much as 100 years) like Daniel is a product of the Persian enlightenment. This was a time when the exile was ended, the Hebrews were returning home, the Temple being rebuilt and the area a semi-autonomous vassal state.

When we get to Zachariah 9 we are most likely reading the work of the Second Zacharia. Chapters 9-11 deal with the period leading up to a Messiah, but not one like Jesus. It is a vision of a return to independence though and the establishment of a Hebrew Great power, through a war lord and conquest.

Now lets look at the cite.

quote:
Zechariah 9:9 (New International Version, ©2010)

The Coming of Zion’s King
9 Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.


And as usual, the quote mined section in context.

First just that section ...

quote:
The Coming of Zion’s King
9 Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
and the warhorses from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow will be broken.
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
His rule will extend from sea to sea
and from the River to the ends of the earth.
11 As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you,
I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.
12 Return to your fortress, you prisoners of hope;
even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you.
13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bow
and fill it with Ephraim.
I will rouse your sons, Zion,
against your sons, Greece,
and make you like a warrior’s sword.

And what comes before Zacharia 9:9

quote:
Zechariah 9 (New International Version, ©2010)

Zechariah 9
Judgment on Israel’s Enemies
1 A prophecy:

The word of the LORD is against the land of Hadrak
and will come to rest on Damascus—
for the eyes of all people and all the tribes of Israel
are on the LORD—
2 and on Hamath too, which borders on it,
and on Tyre and Sidon, though they are very skillful.
3 Tyre has built herself a stronghold;
she has heaped up silver like dust,
and gold like the dirt of the streets.
4 But the Lord will take away her possessions
and destroy her power on the sea,
and she will be consumed by fire.
5 Ashkelon will see it and fear;
Gaza will writhe in agony,
and Ekron too, for her hope will wither.
Gaza will lose her king
and Ashkelon will be deserted.
6 A mongrel people will occupy Ashdod,
and I will put an end to the pride of the Philistines.
7 I will take the blood from their mouths,
the forbidden food from between their teeth.
Those who are left will belong to our God
and become a clan in Judah,
and Ekron will be like the Jebusites.
8 But I will encamp at my temple
to guard it against marauding forces.
Never again will an oppressor overrun my people,
for now I am keeping watch.


Hardly the Prince of Peace.

and after ...

quote:
The LORD Will Appear

14 Then the LORD will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
16 The LORD their God will save his people on that day
as a shepherd saves his flock.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.
17 How attractive and beautiful they will be!
Grain will make the young men thrive,
and new wine the young women.


This oracle (one of two found in Zacharia) is about the Jewish Messiah, a warlord and prince that establishes a new Jewish super power in the region.

And now let's turn to the alleged support.

quote:
Matthew 21:1-4 (New International Version, ©2010)

Matthew 21
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King
1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:


Note where the support ends and the last sentence ICDESIGN used.

Here is what comes after that colon at the end.

quote:
Matthew 21 (New International Version, ©2010)

Matthew 21
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King
1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:

5 “Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”


IF, and I say if, this actually happened it is just as it says in verses 4&5, a contrived fulfillment, an example of myth building where someone aware of some earlier oracle, intentionally does a minor act to garner legitimacy.

More likely, it is simply quote mining by the writer of Matthew, an editorial insertion.

Even if the story was true though, you can see that what was actually said by the prophet does NOT come true.

So now for a final tally.

ICDESIGN presented six examples claimed to be prophecy fulfilled by Jesus. Not one of them stands up to examination.

Edited by jar, : fix word order mess in next to last sentence


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ICdesign, posted 11-30-2010 11:16 AM jar has responded
 Message 149 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 1:07 PM jar has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


(1)
Message 20 of 255 (593901)
11-30-2010 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
11-30-2010 9:56 AM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
2 Peter 2:1 ....there will be false teachers among you,
who will secretly bring in destructive heresies....
and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the
tradition of men, according to the basic principles of
the world, and not according to Christ.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various
and strange doctrines.

Ephesians 4:14 ...we are no longer to be children,
tossed here and there by waves and carried about
by every wind of of doctrine, by the trickery of men
by craftiness in deceitful scheming...

2Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY
GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for
correction, for training in righteousness...

Matthew 24:35 Jesus said: Heaven and earth will
pass away, but my words will not pass away.

So guess what jar? Long after you are dead and
gone and your big mouth has been silenced, the
Word of God will still be marching on as it has
from day one and will continue to do till the final
day. The bible is by far the number one selling
book in all of history and by far the most loved
and the most read of any book ever written.

Nothing you will ever say or do will put even the
slightest dent in the unchangeable truth of
THE WORD OF GOD


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jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 21 of 255 (593904)
11-30-2010 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICdesign
11-30-2010 11:16 AM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
Since you do not present any support for your position is it reasonable to assume that what I have presented is accurate?

Would you like for us to step through each of your new quote mined verses and look at them in context?

Do you understand that the audience, the readers, are capable of examining what I present and you present to see exactly who is the False Teacher?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric
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Posts: 6490
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 22 of 255 (593906)
11-30-2010 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICdesign
11-30-2010 11:16 AM


So you give up?
I see you make no attempt to defend your assertions about prophecy. You and christians like you are why people are turned off from christianity. You make these wild promises and claims, but once anyone questions them you not only cannot defend them, but you then claim that your wild ass claims and promises cannot even be questioned.

You made a claim of 300 prophecies that Jesus met and yet you can not even defend one. You cannot even make a feeble defense.

You may have noticed this is in the science forums where evidence is required to support arguments. I guess you cannot put up so I guess you had better shut up.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6490
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 23 of 255 (593907)
11-30-2010 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
11-30-2010 11:29 AM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
Would you like for us to step through each of your new quote mined verses and look at them in context?

I think this would be a very helpful exercise for a lot of us here.

If you have the time and/or inclination it would be greatly appreciated.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 24 of 255 (593914)
11-30-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICdesign
11-30-2010 11:16 AM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
Yea not a bad seller 3.9 billion copies in 2000 years

The litle red book on the ideology of the chinese communist party sold a quorter of that number or 820 million copies in much less time.

Harry potter sold 400 million a tenth of the bible in what a 1% of the time the bible is on the makret.

And im guessing the nr 2 and nr 3 would sell loads of more copies if they where put in every hotel drawer

Still the number of harry potter books sold does not make the story true.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 25 of 255 (593920)
11-30-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodoric
11-30-2010 11:33 AM


Yet more quote mined verses.
I can try.

Let's start with 2 Timmy.

quote:
2Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY
GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for
correction, for training in righteousness...

The first thing to point out is that the author of 2 Timothy is really unknown.

First, the letter (that is all that Epistle means) is traditionally attributed to Paul, but was more likely written long after Paul's death by one of his followers. Writing things in the style of a well known author and attributing it to that author was a well accepted practice at the time (an even continues, for example one of the best known and often referenced Sherlock Holmes stories is "The Seven Percent Solution" yet was not written by Sir Arthur).

Second, the term Scripture does NOT refer to the Bible or the actual contents of any give Canon, but just to writings that are thought to be inspired by God and that can teach us lessons about morality, ethics, social behavior or conduct.

The author of 2 Timmy understood this well, for example, the Epistles were at the time just correspondence, letters. The only Canonized books at the time, if there were any, might have been the first five books of the Old Testament.

The passage quote mined comes from the end of what is now Chapter 3.

quote:
A Final Charge to Timothy
10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Note in particular that the author returns again to the subject that what really counts is actually doing good work.

2 Timothy is a really interesting read because the common theme throughout it is honesty in belief. It warns against just the things I have tried to point out in this thread, taking things out of context and creating myths. In fact the very next Chapter begins:

quote:
2 Timothy 4 (New International Version, ©2010)

2 Timothy 4

1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.


It tells us to " correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction."; and the reason we should do that is "3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

ICDESIGN and others do not what to hear what I say.

2 Timothy is relatively short, only four chapters and well worth reading in full. It can be found beginning here.

I really hope others will take the time to read it in full and in context.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Edited by jar, : finish first sentence

Edited by jar, : can't even spal "and" rite


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Thugpreacha
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Posts: 12680
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 26 of 255 (593922)
11-30-2010 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
11-30-2010 12:04 PM


Re: Yet more quote mined verses.
interesting....
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jar
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Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 27 of 255 (593926)
11-30-2010 12:44 PM


2 Peter 2:1
Next look at 2 Peter.

As in several others we have looked at, the actual author and even the approximate period when it was written is unknown.

The subject matter though is was very serious at the time and involved yet another unfulfilled prophecy, the imminent end of the world and return of Jesus. It is one of the first examples of Apologetics found in the Bible.

If we look at the early Pastoral letters from Paul and Peter we see a general belief that the end really is near. For example, Paul's position on marriage in his early letters seems to be based around there just not being enough time to raise kids before the end so just don't bother getting married.

But time passed, the end did not come and so there was a growing movement promoting Jesus as just another failed Messiah.

2 Peter is an attempt to change the perception from an imminent return to some indefinite future event.

Like 2 Timmy, 2 Peter is short, only three chapters and can be found here.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
  
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 28 of 255 (593934)
11-30-2010 1:40 PM


Colossians 2:8
The next quote mine from ICDESIGN is Colossians 2:8.

Here is that quote mine:

quote:
Colossians 2:8 (New International Version, ©2010)

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.


Before we get to actually looking at Colossians, I suggest the audience stop and consider who exactly is depending on deception, human tradition and elemental spiritual forces of this world (an interesting subject that gets expanded on in Colossians) so far in this thread?

Like several of the Pastoral Epistles we've discussed, the actual authorship of Colossians has been disputed. It's likely though that it was written by Paul or one of his followers around the time of Paul's first imprisonment.

The letter is addressed to the church at Colossae and was meant to address some of the pagan customs and beliefs that some in the church had adopted.

Here is the quote mined section in context.

quote:
Spiritual Fullness in Christ

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.


But wait, there is more ...

in the next section the author gets to the meat of the subject.

quote:
Freedom From Human Rules

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.


The author here seems to be saying that the show, the carnival that is so typical of the Christianity being marketed today is but a farce, a sham; entertaining perhaps but unrelated to Jesus' real message.

Colossians is another very short letter, only four short pages, and can be found here.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
  
jar
Member
Posts: 31178
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 29 of 255 (593936)
11-30-2010 2:18 PM


Hebrews 13:9
This one is particularly fun and as with the others, you have to wonder if those using it as support have a real reading problem or if they simply DON'T read the Bible, rather only take other folks word about what it says.

Here is the quote mined section ICDESIGN uses.

quote:
Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various
and strange doctrines.

In this case he does not even bother quoting the whole verse, much less place it in context.

Here is all of Hebrews 13:9.

quote:
9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so.

Now I realize that Hebrews is one of the longer letters, all of about thirteen pages long, but come on, if you are gonna take stuff outta context, at least take the whole verse.

You can read all of Hebrews here.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 1670 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 30 of 255 (593943)
11-30-2010 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICdesign
11-30-2010 11:16 AM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
Gday,

ICDESIGN writes:

2Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY
GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for
correction, for training in righteousness...

Christians love to quote this passage as if it proves the Bible is inpired, but there are several serious problems with this passage :

2 Tim 3:16 is ambiguous

The meaning of 2 Tim 3:16 is ambiguous in the Greek because the "is" is not found in Greek.

Here is Young's literal translation, which hedges it's bets by including "is" not found in the original :

16 every Writing ('is') God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that ('is') in righteousness,

Here is the literal translation without the fudged "is" :

16 every Writing God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that in righteousness,

Here is what essay on bible.org says about the variant translation :
"Such a translation is possible, but not required. Actually either translation can claim to be accurate. Both translations have to supply the word is since it does not appear in the original."
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=695

Some Bible versions do have the variant :

(2 Tim 3:16 REB) All inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, or for reformation of manners and discipline in right living,

(2 Tim 3:16 Lamsa) All scripture written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness;

(2 Tim 3:16 NEB) Every inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, or for reformation of manners and discipline in right living,

(2 Tim 3:16 ASV) Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.

(2 Tim 3:16 YLT) every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness,

(2 Tim 3:16 Darby) Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

(2 Tim 3:16 WYC) For all scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach, to reprove, to chastise, [for] to learn in rightwiseness,

(2 Tim 3:16 Douay-Rheims) All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:

(2 Tim 3:16 Webster's) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(2 Tim 3:16 Inspired Version) And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

(2 Tim 3:16 Brown and Comfort Interlinear) ALL SCRIPTURE [IS] GOD-BREATHED AND USEFUL FOR TEACHING, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION FOR TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS,

GNT's note at 2 Timothy 3:16 that gives "Every scripture inspired by God is also useful" as a valid translation (and one that implies that not all scripture is inspired).

Note that apologists never quote this version of the translation, because it doesn't say what they want it to.

New Testament didn't exist when Timothy was written

It is basic Christian history that the NT did not exist when Timothy was written. Timothy was written in early-mid 2nd century (mid 1st according to Christian stories though) But the NT did not exist as a collection until 4th century.

Timothy could not possibly have been cailling ITSELF "scripture" as it was being written, could it ?

Timothy is a forged letter

It is a well known consensus of NT scholars that the Pastorals were forged letters, not by Paul. You can read some details here as to why :
http://earlychristianwritings.com/2timothy.html
An excerpt follows :

2 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE.

Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5):

Vocabulary. While statistics are not always as meaningful as they may seem, of 848 words (excluding proper names) found in the Pastorals, 306 are not in the remainder of the Pauline corpus, even including the deutero-Pauline 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians. Of these 306 words, 175 do not occur elsewhere in the New Testament, while 211 are part of the general vocabulary of Christian writers of the second century. Indeed, the vocabulary of the Pastorals is closer to that of popular Hellenistic philosophy than it is to the vocabulary of Paul or the deutero-Pauline letters. Furthermore, the Pastorals use Pauline words ina non-Pauline sense: dikaios in Paul means "righteous" and here means "upright"; pistis, "faith, " has become "the body of Christian faith"; and so on.

Literary [myspace]style[/myspace]. Paul writes a characteristically dynamic Greek, with dramatic arguments, emotional outbursts, and the introduction of real or imaginary opponents and partners in dialogue. The Pastorals are in a quiet meditative [myspace]style[/myspace], far more characteristic of Hebrews or 1 Peter, or even of literary Hellenistic Greek in general, than of the Corinthian correspondence or of Romans, to say nothing of Galatians.

The situation of the apostle implied in the letters. Paul's situation as envisaged in the Pastorals can in no way be fitted into any reconstruction of Paul's life and work as we know it from the other letters or can deduce it from the Acts of the Apostles. If Paul wrote these letters, then he must have been released from his first Roman imprisonment and have traveled in the West. But such meager tradition as we have seems to be more a deduction of what must have happened from his plans as detailed in Romans than a reflection of known historical reality.

The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter.

K.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICdesign, posted 11-30-2010 11:16 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
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