Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
articulett
Member (Idle past 3371 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


Message 121 of 299 (593824)
11-29-2010 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Meldinoor
11-29-2010 5:35 PM


You don't need to tell people. It think supernatural beliefs should be kept private-- and then it would be unnecessary to say which ones we do and/or don't believe in. (I could assume everyone was rational the way Christians think everyone is Christian!)
When the conversation turns religious, sometimes I just say, "I wish there was just some good evidence for the existence of souls"-- but mostly I stay quiet. Rocking the boat is often not worth it.
Practice online for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Meldinoor, posted 11-29-2010 5:35 PM Meldinoor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by nwr, posted 11-29-2010 7:07 PM articulett has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 122 of 299 (593827)
11-29-2010 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by articulett
11-29-2010 6:49 PM


articulett writes:
When the conversation turns religious, sometimes I just say, "I wish there was just some good evidence for the existence of souls"-- but mostly I stay quiet. Rocking the boat is often not worth it.
I have sometimes said, "I prefer to keep my religious views to myself, and I would prefer that others do the same." This turns out to work well with those who come knocking on the door in their evangelism attempts. They usually don't come back.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 6:49 PM articulett has not replied

  
articulett
Member (Idle past 3371 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


(2)
Message 123 of 299 (593832)
11-29-2010 8:18 PM


Pascal's remants
The Pascal's wager thing bugged me for a while too. It made me stop thinking about my faith, because I was afraid where it was headed. But then I realized that EVERYBODY is going to hell according to somebody's religion. There are many sects that believe only members of their sects are saved. According to the Muslims, Christians are going to hell for worshiping Jesus as a god-- (there is no god but Allah). Islam is a truly a montheistic religion and Muslims don't buy into the idea of a 3-in-1 god. They take the commandment about not having other gods very seriously. And Jehovah Witnesses are sure that only worthy Jehovah Witnesses are saved. Lots of Christians think that only those that believe the Jesus story are saved. Fred Phelps thinks we're all damned except for his clan. (I wonder if he's a creationist?) Mormons will tell you that only Mormons get to go to the highest heaven. (And the most faithful Mormon males will one day be gods on their own planets!)
There really is no way to win with Pascal's wager because there really is no way to tell the right religion from the infinity of wrong ones. Everyone imagines they are in the right one after all.
I segued into Eastern sorts of beliefs and reincarnation for awhile-- it just made more sense to me and felt more fair then this whole pass/fail life test for eternity thing. Heaven and hell and invisible good guys and bad guys all seem so childish, primitive, mythical and man-made to me. They're a part of so many myths. I desperately wanted to believe in souls... I liked the idea of souls coming into bodies to evolve and experience different lives on their way to "nirvana".
Of course, wanting something to be true, doesn't make it true. I'd hear new-age claptrap saying something like, "what does it matter if it's true or not?" But after a while, I realized it did matter to me. If souls were real, then I wanted to be on the forefront of discovering more. But there was nothing there to discover. It was just a bunch of self appointed gurus with conflicting feel-good "secrets" using the usual confirmation bias to gain allegiance to the beliefs they were selling. The scientists seemed to be increasingly coming to the opinion that souls were an illusion. That made sense to me. Science makes sense in a way religion never did. And you can test it and probe it. The only punishment for not "believing it" is ignorance. Plus you can learn about the ways people fool themselves; I could learn about the ways I fooled myself to avoid doing so in the future.
Pascal's wager keeps a lot people calling themselves believers even when they don't know what they believe or why --it also encourages people to stay "on the fence" defending faith-in-general (just in case). As such, it's a very powerful religious meme, and I'm not surprised to find some version of it amongst the most virulent and widespread religions. It will be good when humans no longer inflict these teachings on each other.

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 8:38 PM articulett has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 299 (593834)
11-29-2010 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by articulett
11-29-2010 8:18 PM


Re: Pascal's remants
Most folk also seem to be clueless about what Blaise was actually saying.
He was pointing out two things, that decision trees and probability work and also that living and making life decisions as though you might be judged really has no downside.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 8:18 PM articulett has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-29-2010 8:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 127 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 9:10 PM jar has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 125 of 299 (593836)
11-29-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
11-27-2010 4:21 PM


?
jar writes:
It's pretty clear that none of the Gods we can discuss are much more than Gods created by man, particularly ALL the different Gods in the Christian Bible
That's an unusual statement coming from a Christian. If you don't mind me asking, what do you believe, jar? If I'm not mistaken, you profess to being a Christian, but I rarely see you taking the side of other theists in the debates. You discount biblical prophecy, and now you say that the Christian god was invented by man. I'm not being critical by any means, I'm just confused by the mixed signals. What exactly does being a Christian mean to you?
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 11-27-2010 4:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:11 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 126 of 299 (593837)
11-29-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
11-29-2010 8:38 PM


Re: Pascal's remants
He was pointing out two things, that decision trees and probability work and also that living and making life decisions as though you might be judged really has no downside.
Living as though you might be judged for
(a) not being a Muslim
(b) not being a Protestant
(c) not being a Catholic
(d) not being a Mormon
(e) not being a Jehovah's Witness
would in fact have its downside.
Half the people think I'll be damned for worshiping Jesus as God and half of them think I'll be damned for not doing so. It's either the ultimate blasphemy or the one route to salvation.
Pascal dealt with this by being a Catholic exclusivist who believed that anyone not R.C. would go to Hell, but I can't see the basis on which he "scratched" all the other religions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 8:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
articulett
Member (Idle past 3371 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


Message 127 of 299 (593844)
11-29-2010 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
11-29-2010 8:38 PM


Re: Pascal's remants
To me, there is a downside to thinking what you believe or do will effect your eternity. Just look at the hijackers-- they were sure that they were doing exactly what was needed to earn paradise. Can you really say society benefited from their belief that they were being watched over and advised and judged? Was this belief harmless?
When you believe that some eternity is affected by what you believe or do on earth, then you are vulnerable to anyone who can convince you they know something on the subject. We have no way of telling a real god from a hallucination, voice in the head, misperception, etc. We have no way of telling a real prophet from a fake one or a real holy book from a fake one. So clearly this is dangerous. And the odds are never in your favor anyhow, since there are so many religions that believe only members of their sect are going to be saved that if any one of them are right, the vast majority of humans that ever lived will be suffering forever. No matter how you slice it, the people who are wrong who think they are right vastly outnumber those who could actually be right. Yet every believer thinks they are in the "right" group. Are you supposed to follow the religion where the threats for not following are the scariest? Or just assume you stumbled into the right belief system to win "happily ever after"? In Pascal's case, it was Catholicism. He was looking to confirm his biases that it made sense to believe in Catholicism. I did that when I was a kid. I figured that the fact that Catholics had "verified miracles", stigmata, and Mother Theresa proved it. Of course, I didn't know anything about confirmation bias back then. But I did know the Mormons were telling people to read the book of Mormon and pray to know if it was true-- you'd "get a sign" I was told. I wondered why scientists weren't testing the various religions since everybody's ETERNITY was supposedly at stake.
There are an infinity of wrong beliefs, but only one truth. So far, the best bet for finding the truth is through the methods of science-- not Catholicism or any other faith.
Don't get me wrong-- if you or others would do nefarious things without the threat of hell or the idea that you are being spied on, then I want you and those others to have faith. But I don't need such manipulations to behave morally, and I suspect most others don't either. And I think it's immoral to threaten children with hell.
From my perspective, being afraid of some religion's version of hell is a very big deal. And that's the whole pull behind Pascal's manipulative wager isn't it-- this idea that you will suffer FOREVER for not believing the right thing? If there is no hell (and there is no more evidence for hell than there is for Valhalla) then it's wrong to be manipulating people and their beliefs with threats that they can spend eternity there.
If there are no such thing as souls, is it right to be manipulating people with this idea that there are-- and that they can suffer forever if people don't BELIEVE the right unbelievable story? Or should scientists start preparing people to live in a world where we are not the center of everything? How long must we pretend that it's good to believe such things?
Edited by articulett, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 8:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:15 PM articulett has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 299 (593845)
11-29-2010 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Meldinoor
11-29-2010 8:48 PM


Re: ?
The Biblical Gods, not just the Christian God. It's just very easy to point out how we create Gods in the Judaic religions.
Look at the god in Genesis 1 compared to the god in Genesis 2. They are totally different, the former, younger god is overarching, extremely competent, creating by act or will alone with no hesitations, no revisions, but also aloof, separate, not interacting at all with the creation. The older latter god is quite different, very human, unsure, learning on the job, a hands on tinkerer, fearful, but also personal, interacting with the creation, directly and intimately involved.
A religion is a map, and like all maps it almost surely contains errors, omissions, areas where it is more accurate and areas where it is just plain wrong. It is a map, not the Territory.
With me so far?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Meldinoor, posted 11-29-2010 8:48 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Meldinoor, posted 11-29-2010 9:18 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 299 (593847)
11-29-2010 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Dr Adequate
11-29-2010 8:51 PM


Re: Pascal's remants
But none of those are related to what I posted.
If you live life, examine each act as though you will be judged based on that act, you will try to act right.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-29-2010 8:51 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 9:34 PM jar has replied
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2010 12:16 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 299 (593848)
11-29-2010 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by articulett
11-29-2010 9:10 PM


Re: Pascal's remants
I see no problems there.
The error when you look at 9-11 is thinking it was religiously based. The motive of the terrorist was to change US and Western policy, the same old motives as have always been present; power, money, land, respect.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 9:10 PM articulett has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 10:07 PM jar has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 131 of 299 (593850)
11-29-2010 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
11-29-2010 9:11 PM


Re: ?
jar writes:
A religion is a map, and like all maps it almost surely contains errors, omissions, areas where it is more accurate and areas where it is just plain wrong. It is a map, not the Territory.
With me so far?
I think so. But a good map must have some connection to the reality it attempts to portray. The Christian faith seems so ridden with errors and inaccuracies that it's hard to see how one could consider it a good map. Admittedly it does contain a bit of historical information, and some excellent teachings, but then it's got a lot of evil in it as well. Hell, the slaughter of innocents (condoned by God), etc.
How does a faulty map serve you as any kind of guide to live by?
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:35 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
articulett
Member (Idle past 3371 days)
Posts: 49
Joined: 06-15-2010


Message 132 of 299 (593854)
11-29-2010 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
11-29-2010 9:13 PM


Re: Pascal's remants
Then why are there pedophiliac preists? Surely they believe that they are being watched; I imagine they believe in hell too.
I can see why such beliefs might curb some bad behavior or encourage some good behavior, but I'm not sure the effect is positive over all. I think religious people just use confirmation bias to conclude god wants what they want and that god has the same prejudices as them.
Plus, I'm much more interested in whether there really are invisible beings that can watch over us (without eyes.) If so, why can't we test and find out more about these beings? Why should we think that anyone can know any more about these beings than anyone else if they have no measurable qualities and are (apparently) indistinguishable from the nonexistent? I don't like the idea of being manipulated into belief because others believe it will make ME act better.
I'm all for faith if it makes you feel good or helps you behave better. But in my experience, the faithful just imagine themselves as behaving more morally than those who don't share their faith. As Fred Phelps illustrates, morality, is clearly in the eye of the beholder. I do believe that some people would be miserable without their religious beliefs, but my point in posting on this thread, is to encourage those who are willingly leaving it behind as I did-- the same way you'd encourage someone leaving Scientology or some other religion that you felt was manipulative and untrue.
I don't find Pacal's wager a valid reason to believe anything supernatural. But I understand the fear it invokes and why it keeps people beholden to their indoctrination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:38 PM articulett has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 299 (593855)
11-29-2010 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Meldinoor
11-29-2010 9:18 PM


Re: ?
Club Christian is a very broad group.
I'm not at all sure that I could even describe the "Christian Faith" accurately, just struggle with my chapter.
A Map is only good when you constantly test it against the territory itself. Just because the Map says the bridge is there you cannot ignore the sign that says "Bridge out".
Personally I think one of the biggest problem with Christianity was the creation of a Bible. As soon as we made a list of which scrolls were in and which scrolls were out and mushed them all up together into one volume we lost the perspective that they really are just a collection of separate stories written by different people for different purposes at different time and meant for different audiences.
We limited GOD; put GOD in a box of our own making.
You mention of the slaughter of innocents is a great example. I always suggest looking at the stories in context. Often that changes the perspective.
Please understand, I am not in anyway trying to discourage your "deconversion". I think it can be a great thing, a wonderful learning experience. And I think most of the Gods Christianity markets should be thrown away. If there is a GOD, and I believe there is, it is certainly not the Christian God or a Hindu God or a Greek God or a Norse God; GOD will not be something we can accurately describe, box, label, limit, control.
I am a Christian most likely because quite honestly, I was born and raise within the Christian faith. It is MY path.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Meldinoor, posted 11-29-2010 9:18 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Meldinoor, posted 11-29-2010 9:39 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 299 (593857)
11-29-2010 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by articulett
11-29-2010 9:34 PM


Re: Pascal's remants
Then why are there pedophiliac preists?
Huh?
Why do any of us fail?
What does that have to do with what I pointed out?
I don't think I suggested that you should believe in anything.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 9:34 PM articulett has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by articulett, posted 11-29-2010 10:21 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 135 of 299 (593858)
11-29-2010 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by jar
11-29-2010 9:35 PM


Re: ?
That makes sense. Thanks for explaining your position. I've often wanted to ask, but never before found a good opportunity to do so.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 9:46 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024