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Author Topic:   Salt in Oceans
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 106 of 116 (593300)
11-25-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Jason777
11-25-2010 7:45 PM


Re: I call bullshit
They ignore it because it is irrelevant. Where does the salt come from to start with? From the rocks themselves. So, the rate of evaporation would match the rate that more salt is being redeposited back into the oceans. They shouldn't be expected to make the obvious a point should they?
Your point, so far from being "obvious", seems both cryptic and unsupported.
Clearly these marine evaporites constitute an output of salt because there they sit no longer contributing to the salinity of seawater. Because of not being dissolved in it.
Now that is obvious.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Jason777, posted 11-25-2010 7:45 PM Jason777 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 107 of 116 (593342)
11-26-2010 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Jason777
11-25-2010 7:45 PM


Re: I call bullshit
Jason777 writes:
So, the rate of evaporation would match the rate that more salt is being redeposited back into the oceans.
You say the rates of addition and removal of salt match, right?
If they match, then the amount of salt in the oceans does not change over time, right?
Therefore the amount of salt in the oceans cannot be a measure of the age of the oceans, right?
Secondly, trace fossils need to be verified in these evaporates to confirm them as such. (Plankton,Diatoms,etc.)
Bodies of water shrinking and eventually disappearing due to evaporation become so salty that only halophiles (organisms that require salty water) can survive. Fossil halophiles are of course found in salt deposits, see for example Origins of halophilic microorganisms in ancient salt deposits.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Jason777, posted 11-25-2010 7:45 PM Jason777 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-26-2010 11:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 109 by Jason777, posted 11-26-2010 1:29 PM Percy has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 108 of 116 (593348)
11-26-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Percy
11-26-2010 10:05 AM


Re: I call bullshit
You say the rates of addition and removal of salt match, right?
If they match, then the amount of salt in the oceans does not change over time, right?
Therefore the amount of salt in the oceans cannot be a measure of the age of the oceans, right?
I did wonder about this, but put it down to incoherence of expression rather than of the underlying thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 11-26-2010 10:05 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Jason777
Member (Idle past 4870 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 109 of 116 (593357)
11-26-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Percy
11-26-2010 10:05 AM


Re: I call bullshit
Hi Percy, nice to hear from you again.
quote:
You say the rates of addition and removal of salt match, right?
If they match, then the amount of salt in the oceans does not change over time, right?
Therefore the amount of salt in the oceans cannot be a measure of the age of the oceans, right?
  —Percy
No. I'm stating the fact that when inland seas evaporate, the water condensates into rain which only increases the rate of sodium being redeposited back into the oceans. The average rate is ~457 tons annually, if evaporation from inland seas increases the precipitation rate, then it would also increase the redeposition rate. Meaning, the oceans will still increase at an average rate regardless.
quote:
Bodies of water shrinking and eventually disappearing due to evaporation become so salty that only halophiles (organisms that require salty water) can survive. Fossil halophiles are of course found in salt deposits, see for example Origins of halophilic microorganisms in ancient salt deposits.
Diatoms and other marine macrofossils don't just evaporate with the water; they should leave marine signatures verifying them as ancient oceans. Many salt deposits are simply that and have never been dissolved into the ocean to start with.
Thanks.
Edited by Jason777, : Added Quote.
Edited by Jason777, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 11-26-2010 10:05 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Percy, posted 11-26-2010 3:15 PM Jason777 has not replied
 Message 112 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-26-2010 3:24 PM Jason777 has not replied
 Message 113 by edge, posted 11-28-2010 8:31 PM Jason777 has not replied
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 11-29-2010 4:13 PM Jason777 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 110 of 116 (593364)
11-26-2010 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Jason777
11-26-2010 1:29 PM


Re: I call bullshit
Jason777 writes:
No. I'm stating the fact that when inland seas evaporate, the water condensates into rain which only increases the rate of sodium being redeposited back into the oceans.
So you think that when water evaporates from a salt water sea that it carries the salt with it? And then the salt returns to earth when the water condenses and falls to Earth as rain? Are you sure about that? Did you know that a common method of salt production involves evaporation ponds, where the water evaporates and leaves the salt behind?
The average rate is ~457 tons annually, if evaporation from inland seas increases the precipitation rate, then it would also increase the redeposition rate. Meaning, the oceans will still increase at an average rate regardless.
Wind blowing across seas and oceans transports salt some distance inland - is this the kind of thing you're thinking of with your "~457 tons annually" figure?
But however the salt is deposited on land, how would adding salt to the seas and oceans increase their salinity if the salt came from the seas and oceans in the first place?
Diatoms and other marine macrofossils don't just evaporate with the water; they should leave marine signatures verifying them as ancient oceans.
Sedimentation beneath any sea includes fossils of the creatures that live there. Any sea that begins shrinking due to evaporation experiences an increase in salinity, and if the evaporation continues long enough then the salt begins precipitating out and forms salt deposits on the sea bottom, rather than the normal sedimentary layers consisting of sand and mud and so on. When a sea reaches a very high salinity level then only halophiles can live there. Some halophiles *are* diatoms, some aren't. The primary distinction is that halophiles occupy very salty seas where most other species cannot survive. Halophiles are what you should expect to find in salt deposits that formed from evaporated seas, and that's what we do find.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Jason777, posted 11-26-2010 1:29 PM Jason777 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 11-26-2010 3:20 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 116 (593365)
11-26-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Percy
11-26-2010 3:15 PM


Re: I call bullshit
Can I suggest that maybe the existence of very large beds of salt all over the world might indicate that not all salt gets returned to the seas?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Percy, posted 11-26-2010 3:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 112 of 116 (593366)
11-26-2010 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Jason777
11-26-2010 1:29 PM


Re: I call bullshit
No. I'm stating the fact that when inland seas evaporate, the water condensates into rain which only increases the rate of sodium being redeposited back into the oceans. The average rate is ~457 tons annually, if evaporation from inland seas increases the precipitation rate, then it would also increase the redeposition rate. Meaning, the oceans will still increase at an average rate regardless.
Leaving aside the bit where you attempt to produce a quantitative argument without actually calculating any of the relevant quantities, could I draw your attention to the fact that the marine evaporites don't correspond to a higher rate of evaporation but a lower rate of mixing?
The same amount of water would evaporate from the same amount of ocean whether it was or wasn't almost cut off from the main body of the ocean. But the precipitation of halite occurs only if it is.
Diatoms and other marine macrofossils don't just evaporate with the water; they should leave marine signatures verifying them as ancient oceans.
Unless, of course, and you may treat this as the purest conjecture, marine organisms can't tolerate high levels of salinity. I guess that would make the seas in question dead seas. Hmm ... that phrase rings a bell somehow ... and I'm sure it has something to do with salt ...
Perhaps you could jog my memory.
Many salt deposits are simply that and have never been dissolved into the ocean to start with.
Perhaps you could provide a hypothesis as to how they did get there ... or is your claim just based on wishful thinking?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Jason777, posted 11-26-2010 1:29 PM Jason777 has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 113 of 116 (593712)
11-28-2010 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Jason777
11-26-2010 1:29 PM


Re: I call bullshit
Diatoms and other marine macrofossils don't just evaporate with the water; they should leave marine signatures verifying them as ancient oceans. Many salt deposits are simply that and have never been dissolved into the ocean to start with.
I'm having some difficulty understanding your post. First of all, diatoms are not macrofossils.
Some might be ancient and some not.
"Many salt deposits are simply that..." Simply what?
Are you saying that diatoms have salt skeletons?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Jason777, posted 11-26-2010 1:29 PM Jason777 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 114 of 116 (593802)
11-29-2010 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Jason777
11-26-2010 1:29 PM


Re: I call bullshit
No. I'm stating the fact that when inland seas evaporate, the water condensates into rain which only increases the rate of sodium being redeposited back into the oceans.
Have you checked the salinity of a fresh water river compared to the ocean? Last i checked the concentration of salt in the oceans is a lot higher than that found in rain water. The very fact that we find salt deposits that are NOT moving back into the ocean simply disproves your assertion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Jason777, posted 11-26-2010 1:29 PM Jason777 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 115 of 116 (593918)
11-30-2010 11:55 AM


Clarification
I've been waiting for a response from Jason, but since it's been a few days there's something I need to clarify. I evidently misunderstood Jason's explanations and mistakenly came to believe that he thought that salt evaporates with the water. I understand now that he was just referring to the water cycle.
Jason is correct that salt constantly flows into the world's oceans, but as others have pointed out, he is ignoring that salt is also removed from the oceans, dismissing it as irrelevant. The next time he fills his bathtub he should let us know if the fact that the drain is open is irrelevant.
What I think Jason was attempting to say is that once salt beds are on land that they will eventually wash back into the sea, and he is correct. But at the same time new salt beds are being formed. For example, the Aral Sea in the former Soviet Union is gradually disappearing, leaving behind vast salt plains.
Oceans form when continents divide and spread apart, and salt flows into these oceans. Oceans are closed in and eventually disappear when continents collide. Continents rising and falling can also isolate seas and oceans, causing them to eventually evaporate and disappear. For example, Arches National Park in Utah sits atop a salt bed thousands of feet thick that formed millions of years ago when an ancient ocean evaporated as that region of the continent lifted.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2010 12:04 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 116 of 116 (593921)
11-30-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Percy
11-30-2010 11:55 AM


Re: Clarification
What I think Jason was attempting to say is that once salt beds are on land that they will eventually wash back into the sea, and he is correct.
Not necessarily. They could just stay buried (Remember that there are still pre-Cambrian halite deposits knocking about). Or they could get subducted (a closing ocean basin is a good place for the formation of a saline giant and also a good place for subduction to occur).
But I read Jason as saying that when evaporites are formed the amount of evaporation from the oceans increases, which increases the amount of rain on land, which increases the input of salt into the oceans, which somehow always manages to compensate exactly for the output through evaporite formation. Which is wrong for reasons that I've indicated.
Perhaps if and when he comes back he could clarify this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Percy, posted 11-30-2010 11:55 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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