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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 29 of 255 (593936)
11-30-2010 2:18 PM


Hebrews 13:9
This one is particularly fun and as with the others, you have to wonder if those using it as support have a real reading problem or if they simply DON'T read the Bible, rather only take other folks word about what it says.
Here is the quote mined section ICDESIGN uses.
quote:
Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various
and strange doctrines.
In this case he does not even bother quoting the whole verse, much less place it in context.
Here is all of Hebrews 13:9.
quote:
9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so.
Now I realize that Hebrews is one of the longer letters, all of about thirteen pages long, but come on, if you are gonna take stuff outta context, at least take the whole verse.
You can read all of Hebrews here.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 36 of 255 (593949)
11-30-2010 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Kapyong
11-30-2010 4:03 PM


Forgery?
I think calling it a forgery is also going a bit far.
There is no indication that I know of for considering it a forgery, particularly when the common accepted practices at the time would not have seen it that way.
Is the "Seven Percent Solution" a forgery because it claims to be the memoirs of Dr. Watson? Is the Hobbit a forgery because it claims to be written by Bilbo Baggins?
A common practice at the time (and even continuing today) was to write things attributable to notable people and to make arguments in the style of a major Rabbi and attribute those arguments to that person even if the person is long dead.
The issue is not so much about authorship or attribution here as whether the quotes stand up to examination within context.
AbE:
In addition, issues like how many copies of the Bible have been sold are also irrelevant to the topic
Edited by jar, : try to head folk back on topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Kapyong, posted 11-30-2010 4:03 PM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Kapyong, posted 11-30-2010 4:15 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 38 of 255 (593951)
11-30-2010 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Kapyong
11-30-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Forgery?
Whatever. It is still totally irrelevant to the thread.
If it makes YOU feel good to consider it a forgery, then fine.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Kapyong, posted 11-30-2010 4:15 PM Kapyong has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 40 of 255 (593954)
11-30-2010 4:49 PM


Ephesians 4:14
The next place ICDESIGN mentioned as support is Ephesians 4:14
quote:
Ephesians 4:14 ...we are no longer to be children,
tossed here and there by waves and carried about
by every wind of of doctrine, by the trickery of men
by craftiness in deceitful scheming...
That ICDESIGN chose that one I find very ironic.
Just read what it actually says.
quote:
Ephesians 4:14 (New International Version, 2010)
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
You have to love it, I could not have found better support for my position.
It is time for Christians to stop just accepting what their pastors say and start acting like adults, actually check their claims, make them support their positions, stop being deceived by every wind of teaching, by the cunning and craftiness of the Preachers and Televangelists and their deceitful scheming.
But as always, let's look at the part he quote mined in context.
quote:
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
And guess what, once again what is being discussed is growing up, maturing, behavior, honesty.
What I am trying to do in this thread is present some honesty, honestly looking at the pieces parts Christianity and trying to relate what they claim the pieces parts Christianity says to what is actually said.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 41 of 255 (593959)
11-30-2010 5:27 PM


Matthew 24:35
Finally, the last of the most recent crop of ICDESIGN quote mines is Matthew 24:35.
His cite:
quote:
Matthew 24:35 Jesus said: Heaven and earth will
pass away, but my words will not pass away.
This is perhaps the most apt of his quotes because it is part of a passage that almost doomed the early Church and lead to the creation of a new profession, the Christian Apologetic (see Message 27).
Let's stop and look at this one in context and maybe you guys can see why this passage created so much trouble.
quote:
32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
See it?
Look closely, it's there.
Try squinting and holding your breath.
Yup, right there, the very line before the one taken out of context is "34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
Well, years passed and the signs did not arrive and the End did not come and the generation was getting old and ...
The result was letters like 2 Peter where the argument gets made that God decided to give extra time to spread the word and we are still seeing the exact same thing today, or rather next year according to Family Radio.
Thanks ICDESIGN.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-30-2010 5:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 44 of 255 (593964)
11-30-2010 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by New Cat's Eye
11-30-2010 5:36 PM


Yeah, and I just renewed my drivers license through 2015. I wonder if I will get a rebate for the unused portion?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-30-2010 5:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 48 of 255 (593971)
11-30-2010 6:29 PM


A point
One point I would like to make sure is clear to all, in this thread I am not attacking the Bible, but rather the misuse and perversion of the Bible.
Efforts like those seen in this thread, taking things out of context, misrepresentations of what is actually in the Bible to support dogma and attempts to make it appear as one book with one subject simply diminishes and devalues the Bible and what can be learned from it.
It is not the Bible I oppose, just the falsehoods attributed to it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 49 of 255 (593972)
11-30-2010 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by frako
11-30-2010 6:24 PM


What IS prophecy?
Added By Edit.
AbE:
I forgot to address your question.
frako writes:
How can they say a prophecy is furfilled if it is in both pars of the bible. Its like saying it was told that harry potter will slay that evil dude in book 1 and he slayed him in the last book (or so i think i did not read it or watch the movie yet). So the prophecy came true harry must be a real person and the best wizard ever.
Yes, if that happened it would just be fiction, and unfortunately in the case of most claimed prophecy that is EXACTLY what happens.
The problem is that most Christians at least seem to be clueless about prophecy was all about.
In the Bible, prophecy was a message from God to his people, the people living at the time of the utterance, a celestial dope slap. It was God saying "If you keep doing what you are doing then all hell will break lose."
It was not always immediate, but the message was meant to be acted on right then.
An example is the story of Joseph and the seven year cycle; Joseph telling Pharaoh that "hey, we are having good times now but they may not last, and unless you put stuff aside now you gonna be hurting then."
The idea that God had to leave clues in obscure language with a people that have been dead for thousands and thousands of years for folk today or even in our future is just plain silly. God is perfectly capable of reaching folk today in our own media and those living in the future in theirs.
Again, the problem is not the Bible or its contents, it is the readers misunderstanding.
Edited by jar, : add answer to his question.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by frako, posted 11-30-2010 6:24 PM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2010 6:08 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 255 (594031)
12-01-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
12-01-2010 2:49 AM


So where we stand.
So here is where we stand as of this point.
ICDESIGN has presented six examples that he claimed were prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, and also six other quote mines that I think he thought somehow refuted either what I was saying or what I was doing.
I have tried to examine each in context and also to explain some of the background that lead to their creation.
None of the former seem to be prophecies about Jesus and the only one that might actually be said to have been fulfilled by Jesus even says right in the quote he used as support, that it was contrived, done simply to match what was in the record. If the New Testament event even really happened it was not an example of fulfilling prophecy but rather creating a false prophecy.
Of the latter group, when his quotes were examined in context it seems that instead of refuting my position that each and every one actually supported my position. In particular, the last one is very important because it pointed to a failed prophecy that forced a total change in the Christian message and practice.
I know that there are many, many claims of fulfilled prophecy that are used as marketing tools in Christianity, and I am happy to continue to examine them one at a time.
If anyone disagrees with what I have presented I hope that they will post the best support for their argument.
If anyone has a Biblical prophecy they believe was fulfilled, then I hope they will bring it up; but please, no nonsense like a link to some site that claims hundreds of such critters, let's deal with one at a time.
I, as a devout Christian, am not attacking GOD or Jesus or Christianity, only the misuse of the Bible and those practices that devalue and diminish its messages.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 12-01-2010 2:49 AM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 255 (594056)
12-01-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by frako
11-29-2010 5:38 PM


Jeremiah 23:5
The Jeremiah quote is also another example of quote mining.
quote:
Jeremiah 23:5 (New International Version, 2010)
5 The days are coming, declares the LORD,
when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
Again, let's look at the background.
Jeremiah like Micah and Isaiah lived during the period when the Great Power was shifting to the North. Judah, the nation where Jeremiah lived and preached is the setting, and the events of Israel (remember it is a separate Nation) and Judah are the subject matter.
The writings of Jeremiah span a period that covers five different Kings of Judah and revolves around the power plays between the North and South, between Egypt and Babylon.
The saga begins likely around the ascendancy of Josiah to the throne of Judah.
Josiah's father and grandfather, Amon and Manasseh had opened Judah to multiple religions, religious freedom and allowed the worship and practices of other gods.
The period when Jeremiah is preaching is one of great turmoil both internally and externally, of reform within Judah and the creation of an exclusive Jewish state.
Jeremiah 23 is from a later stage, Assyria is waning, Babylon on the rise and Egypt also recovering and once again becoming a Great Power.
Now let's look at the passage in context.
quote:
Jeremiah 23 (New International Version, 2010)
Jeremiah 23
The Righteous Branch
1 Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture! declares the LORD. 2 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done, declares the LORD. 3 I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing, declares the LORD.
5 The days are coming, declares the LORD,
when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteous Savior.
7 So then, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 8 but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.
Here as in the other examples folk have cited, when seen in context it is speaking of contemporary issues, not of things 500 and more years in the future.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by frako, posted 11-29-2010 5:38 PM frako has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 255 (594232)
12-02-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by arachnophilia
12-02-2010 6:08 PM


Re: What IS prophecy?
spidey writes:
well, the thing is that it's possible for neatly tied prophetic story arcs in singular works of fiction.
Exactly, as I tried to point out, a great example is the story of Joseph and the dreams. It's also though a pretty clear indication that the story is fiction.
spidey writes:
prophecy is meaningless outside of its historical context: the people it was given to.
The idea that there is prophecy in the Bible that is still meant to come true has several serious flaws.
First, it makes the god character look stupid.
But an even bigger issue is that by definition, it is still all failed prophecy.
Failed prophecy has long been a serious issue within Christianity, one that seems to usually get solved by redefining words, making stuff up and by just sticking fingers in ears and going "La-La-La".
A great example was ICDESIGN trying to use Matthew 24:35 as support that the stories in the Bible are absolutely true.
As I tried to point out in Message 41, if they use Matthew 24:35 as proof that all is hunky dory then they have to deal with Matthew 24:34, and that's a really big issue. Instead of just admitting that the author of Matthew got it wrong, they have spent almost 2000 years trying to tap dance around the definition of "generation".
It is mental gymnastics like that that tend to drive folk away from the Bible and Christianity.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2010 6:08 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2010 9:08 PM jar has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 255 (594644)
12-04-2010 9:15 AM


Topic folk, Please
Let's head back towards the topic if possible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 255 (594921)
12-05-2010 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 4:36 PM


I choose to read what is there...you choose not to
So again, you have no support for your position other than what you choose to believe and even admit that you simply cull material out of context to support your beliefs.
Got it.
AbE:
Let's see if we can explore this further.
ICDESIGN writes:
A prophecy doesn't have to be in context with the entire paragraph it is encased in. That is one reason why so many like jar get it wrong.
Why not?
The idea of Prophecy was to tell the audience that heard the prophet some message from God that they were expected to act on.
Why wouldn't the total context of what the prophet was saying be relevant?
What possible use is a prophecy that can only be understood and recognized after the fact?
Why would God bother giving a prophecy for folk living today to folk that died thousands and thousands of years ago?
If prophecy is meant to be understood, why bury it within a bunch of unrelated material?
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Edited by jar, : add material

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 12-05-2010 4:36 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 255 (594931)
12-05-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by bluescat48
12-05-2010 5:12 PM


Facts versus the topic
It really does not much matter if any of those are factual or not, the issue is whether or not the material presented was written as a prophecy.
I don't think anyone doubts that you can take the actual facts of someones life and then go back and find pieces parts in older writings that when taken out of context could be said to support those facts, and in many cases that is even admitted as in the example from Matthew.
It is certainly possible to manufacture prophecy after the fact.
The question is "Were the specific passages he mentioned intentionally written originally as prophecy of Jesus?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by bluescat48, posted 12-05-2010 5:12 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 255 (594950)
12-05-2010 7:13 PM


A second look at some of the so called prophecies.
ICDESIGN mentioned yet again several incidents that he considers to be prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. Among them were "He was born of a virgin,He was born in Bethlehem, He rode into town on a donkey,He was beaten to a bloody pulp,
...... so-forth and so-on. "
Some we have already dealt with. for example the mention of riding into town on an ass clearly is nothing but a created after the fact prophecy, a false prophecy.
The one related to being born in Bethlehem was also addressed, it simply is not there just as the one about him being beaten to a pulp. They are NOT there in the Old Testament parts ICDESIGN mentioned as his support.
BUT WAIT...There's more.
The things he mentions as important and as some kind of support for Jesus have two common characteristics.
First, they seems to have made no impression or even deserve mention in the earliest writings. They get no play, no mention at all until we come to the Gospels and there, as demonstrated, there is lots of evidence that they are just plain manufactured, the writer taking stuff out of context to try to establish legitimacy.
Second, they are really pretty much irrelevant to Jesus message. If he had walked into town or rode a speckled horse, it would have changed nothing. If he had been born in Jezreel or Jerico, it would have changed nothing.
What value do the so called prophecies add?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by arachnophilia, posted 12-05-2010 7:45 PM jar has replied

  
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