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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 255 (593966)
11-30-2010 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by frako
11-30-2010 5:39 PM


I wonder what will happen to the site on may 22, 2011

Obviously, it is going to end with the world. Duh!

ABE: Do you smell a moose?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by frako, posted 11-30-2010 5:39 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by frako, posted 11-30-2010 6:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2815
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 47 of 255 (593970)
11-30-2010 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
11-30-2010 5:42 PM


ABE: Do you smell a moose?

Ok im not trying to be offtopic but i realy would like to know what abe stands for.

I googled abe definition and i got 140 results

A few im guessing are not what you mean.

Adult Basic Education
Anybody But England
Adult Banner Exchange
Accidental Blood Exposure
Americans for Better Education

To not stray to fare from topic

How can they say a prophecy is furfilled if it is in both pars of the bible. Its like saying it was told that harry potter will slay that evil dude in book 1 and he slayed him in the last book (or so i think i did not read it or watch the movie yet). So the prophecy came true harry must be a real person and the best wizard ever.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31610
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 48 of 255 (593971)
11-30-2010 6:29 PM


A point
One point I would like to make sure is clear to all, in this thread I am not attacking the Bible, but rather the misuse and perversion of the Bible.

Efforts like those seen in this thread, taking things out of context, misrepresentations of what is actually in the Bible to support dogma and attempts to make it appear as one book with one subject simply diminishes and devalues the Bible and what can be learned from it.

It is not the Bible I oppose, just the falsehoods attributed to it.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31610
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 49 of 255 (593972)
11-30-2010 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by frako
11-30-2010 6:24 PM


What IS prophecy?
Added By Edit.

AbE:

I forgot to address your question.

frako writes:

How can they say a prophecy is furfilled if it is in both pars of the bible. Its like saying it was told that harry potter will slay that evil dude in book 1 and he slayed him in the last book (or so i think i did not read it or watch the movie yet). So the prophecy came true harry must be a real person and the best wizard ever.

Yes, if that happened it would just be fiction, and unfortunately in the case of most claimed prophecy that is EXACTLY what happens.

The problem is that most Christians at least seem to be clueless about prophecy was all about.

In the Bible, prophecy was a message from God to his people, the people living at the time of the utterance, a celestial dope slap. It was God saying "If you keep doing what you are doing then all hell will break lose."

It was not always immediate, but the message was meant to be acted on right then.

An example is the story of Joseph and the seven year cycle; Joseph telling Pharaoh that "hey, we are having good times now but they may not last, and unless you put stuff aside now you gonna be hurting then."

The idea that God had to leave clues in obscure language with a people that have been dead for thousands and thousands of years for folk today or even in our future is just plain silly. God is perfectly capable of reaching folk today in our own media and those living in the future in theirs.

Again, the problem is not the Bible or its contents, it is the readers misunderstanding.

Edited by jar, : add answer to his question.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by frako, posted 11-30-2010 6:24 PM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2010 6:08 PM jar has responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3110 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 50 of 255 (593998)
12-01-2010 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by crashfrog
11-30-2010 4:04 PM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
Yeah that's right Crashfrog. I am sick of
listening to all of you big mouths mocking
God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I have never once seen jar get even one
single scripture right. He twists everything
he speaks about acting like he is a big
authority on the bible. He consistantly
calls God a liar and tries to act like he
knows God when he doesn't have the slightest
clue about the true and living God.

...so yeah, long after jar and the rest of us
are long gone the truth of God will go marching
on changing lives and saving souls. 100 years
from now not one thing any of you have said will
be remembered but not even one word of
God will pass away and none of you can
do anything about it.

over & out

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2010 4:04 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by anglagard, posted 12-01-2010 3:12 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 53 by AdminPD, posted 12-01-2010 7:23 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 55 by Granny Magda, posted 12-01-2010 7:38 AM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 56 by jar, posted 12-01-2010 10:33 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 51 of 255 (593999)
12-01-2010 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
12-01-2010 2:49 AM


Too Weak to Defend
ICDESIGN writes:

Yeah that's right Crashfrog. I am sick of
listening to all of you big mouths mocking
God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I have never once seen jar get even one
single scripture right. He twists everything
he speaks about acting like he is a big
authority on the bible. He consistantly
calls God a liar and tries to act like he
knows God when he doesn't have the slightest
clue about the true and living God.

...so yeah, long after jar and the rest of us
are long gone the truth of God will go marching
on changing lives and saving souls. 100 years
from now not one thing any of you have said will
be remembered but not even one word of
God will pass away and none of you can
do anything about it.

over & out

1) Are you proclaiming yourself God? If not why do you presume to speak for God?

2) Any literate and reasonably neutral party to this debate can obviously see that your knowledge of the contents of the Bible is vastly inferior to jar's (and Purpledawn, Ringo, and Dr Bill). Have you even read it once, cover to cover? And if indeed even so, did you read it for understanding or to validate preconceived notions?

3) You do realize that placing yourself as speaking for God, over the Bible, places you in violation of the commandment against having other gods before me.

4) You do realize that misrepresenting what the Bible actually states, places you in violation of the commandment against bearing false witness.

5) You do realize that your gargantuan personal ego is a direct affront to the very Jesus you so proclaim to follow.

Nothing but common self-righteous authoritarianism, pwned by your own tantrum.

I will give jar a POTM for the whole thread as soon as I can figure out to which month it belongs. In the meantime it is the high 5 all the way.

{ABE} except for a few low content ones, I personally prefer honesty to being the lackey of some ignorant authoritarian preacher. {/ABE}

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 12-01-2010 2:49 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 52 of 255 (594010)
12-01-2010 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by crashfrog
11-30-2010 4:04 PM


Rule #2 and Rule #10
Crashfrog,

Rule #2 - Stay on topic. Your post was useless to the thread.

Rule #10 - Argue the position, not the person.

Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

This is not the Free For All Forum.

Add substance to the discussion and help it progress or don't participate.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

Thank you
AdminPD Purple


This message is a reply to:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 53 of 255 (594013)
12-01-2010 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
12-01-2010 2:49 AM


Rule #2 and Rule #10
ICDESIGN,

Rule #2 - Stay on topic.

Rule #10 - Argue the position, not the person.

Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

This thread is in a science forum and evidence or reasoned argumentation is expected to support your position.

This is a debate forum. Disagreement is the nature of debate. If you continue personal attacks, you will be suspended as will anyone else who continues such behavior in this thread, whether I've warned them or not.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

Thank you
AdminPD Purple


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 12-01-2010 2:49 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 54 of 255 (594015)
12-01-2010 7:34 AM


Rules People
This is not a Free For All thread or a Chat page.

1. Follow all moderator requests.

2. Please stay on topic for a thread.

4. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.

10. Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

Move the discussion forward people. The next person to make a useless post will be suspended for 24 hours.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

Thank you
AdminPD Purple


  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 55 of 255 (594016)
12-01-2010 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
12-01-2010 2:49 AM


Re: Zechariah 9:9
Hi ICDESIGN,

I really think you need to calm down some. Jar has offered you his opinion on the scripture quotes you chose to bring up. His view differs from yours and he has been good enough to expound upon why this is.

You have not even tried to tell us what is supposed to be wrong with jar's interpretations. All you have done is shout and offer vague threats of violence. That is extremely poor form and all the worse because I happen to know that you are capable of better.

I am sick of
listening to all of you big mouths mocking
God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

a) Why the short line-breaks? Quit hitting enter!

b) If you don't like it here, no-one is forcing you to stay, but this is a debate site. Confronting opposing opinions is what it's all about. If you can't handle that, you really are wasting your time here. Feel free to go back to surrounding yourself with people who will never challenge your beliefs.

I have never once seen jar get even one
single scripture right.

Great. It should be easy then, to explain to us where jar is getting it wrong. Simply shouting that he is wrong or a liar is pointless, childish and pathetic.

Of course, if your true aim is to discredit Christianity by making its adherents seem like petty, petulant fools, who are unable to back up their beliefs with reasoned arguments, go right ahead, You're on the right track.

Mutate and Survive

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 12-01-2010 2:49 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31610
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 56 of 255 (594031)
12-01-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
12-01-2010 2:49 AM


So where we stand.
So here is where we stand as of this point.

ICDESIGN has presented six examples that he claimed were prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, and also six other quote mines that I think he thought somehow refuted either what I was saying or what I was doing.

I have tried to examine each in context and also to explain some of the background that lead to their creation.

None of the former seem to be prophecies about Jesus and the only one that might actually be said to have been fulfilled by Jesus even says right in the quote he used as support, that it was contrived, done simply to match what was in the record. If the New Testament event even really happened it was not an example of fulfilling prophecy but rather creating a false prophecy.

Of the latter group, when his quotes were examined in context it seems that instead of refuting my position that each and every one actually supported my position. In particular, the last one is very important because it pointed to a failed prophecy that forced a total change in the Christian message and practice.

I know that there are many, many claims of fulfilled prophecy that are used as marketing tools in Christianity, and I am happy to continue to examine them one at a time.

If anyone disagrees with what I have presented I hope that they will post the best support for their argument.

If anyone has a Biblical prophecy they believe was fulfilled, then I hope they will bring it up; but please, no nonsense like a link to some site that claims hundreds of such critters, let's deal with one at a time.

I, as a devout Christian, am not attacking GOD or Jesus or Christianity, only the misuse of the Bible and those practices that devalue and diminish its messages.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICdesign, posted 12-01-2010 2:49 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31610
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 57 of 255 (594056)
12-01-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by frako
11-29-2010 5:38 PM


Jeremiah 23:5
The Jeremiah quote is also another example of quote mining.

quote:
Jeremiah 23:5 (New International Version, ©2010)

5 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.


Again, let's look at the background.

Jeremiah like Micah and Isaiah lived during the period when the Great Power was shifting to the North. Judah, the nation where Jeremiah lived and preached is the setting, and the events of Israel (remember it is a separate Nation) and Judah are the subject matter.

The writings of Jeremiah span a period that covers five different Kings of Judah and revolves around the power plays between the North and South, between Egypt and Babylon.

The saga begins likely around the ascendancy of Josiah to the throne of Judah.

Josiah's father and grandfather, Amon and Manasseh had opened Judah to multiple religions, religious freedom and allowed the worship and practices of other gods.

The period when Jeremiah is preaching is one of great turmoil both internally and externally, of reform within Judah and the creation of an exclusive Jewish state.

Jeremiah 23 is from a later stage, Assyria is waning, Babylon on the rise and Egypt also recovering and once again becoming a Great Power.

Now let's look at the passage in context.

quote:
Jeremiah 23 (New International Version, ©2010)

Jeremiah 23
The Righteous Branch

1 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. 2 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD. 3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the LORD.

5 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteous Savior.

7 “So then, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 8 but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.”


Here as in the other examples folk have cited, when seen in context it is speaking of contemporary issues, not of things 500 and more years in the future.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by frako, posted 11-29-2010 5:38 PM frako has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 58 of 255 (594226)
12-02-2010 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICdesign
11-30-2010 11:16 AM


Deuteronomy 18
ICDESIGN writes:

2 Peter 2:1 ....there will be false teachers among you,
who will secretly bring in destructive heresies....
and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the
tradition of men, according to the basic principles of
the world, and not according to Christ.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various
and strange doctrines.

Ephesians 4:14 ...we are no longer to be children,
tossed here and there by waves and carried about
by every wind of of doctrine, by the trickery of men
by craftiness in deceitful scheming...

2Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED BY
GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for
correction, for training in righteousness...

Matthew 24:35 Jesus said: Heaven and earth will
pass away, but my words will not pass away.

yes, the bible has quite a lot to say about false prophets. for instance, how to tell whether a prophet is false, and what the punishment is for pretending to be a prophet.

quote:
But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' And if thou say in thy heart: 'How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?' When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22


and contrary to your point, it encourages viewing prophecy -- all prophecy -- with a high degree of skepticism. the test is not the fact that someone said something, or that it was written somewhere, but that the thing prophesied actually comes to pass.

unfortunately, many of these claimed christ prophecies simply aren't. most have to do with other things. for instance, the cited one from isaiah 7 was indeed fulfilled: roughly six hundred years before the birth of christ. it simply can't have been about jesus in way, shape, or form. context doesn't fit, literal grammar doesn't fit, and jesus was named yehoshua, not imanuel.

stretching prophecy in this way is highly dishonest, to the degree that it should fail that skeptical view encouraged by the old testament. if the prophet elijah said, "yahweh will send a holy fire down on mount carmel to consume the offering", and 2 years later, he rubbed some sticks together, none of the priests of baal would have taken him seriously. nor would anyone else.

god does not weasel. his proof leaves no doubt.

ICDESIGN writes:

The bible is by far the number one selling
book in all of history and by far the most loved
and the most read of any book ever written.

and sadly, by far the least understood. but keep trying, one day you will get it.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICdesign, posted 11-30-2010 11:16 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 59 of 255 (594227)
12-02-2010 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
11-30-2010 6:29 PM


Re: What IS prophecy?
jar writes:

frako writes:

How can they say a prophecy is furfilled if it is in both pars of the bible. Its like saying it was told that harry potter will slay that evil dude in book 1 and he slayed him in the last book (or so i think i did not read it or watch the movie yet). So the prophecy came true harry must be a real person and the best wizard ever.

Yes, if that happened it would just be fiction, and unfortunately in the case of most claimed prophecy that is EXACTLY what happens.

well, the thing is that it's possible for neatly tied prophetic story arcs in singular works of fiction. all (legitimate) harry potter books have a single author: jk rowling. so she can write that harry will defeat voldemort in the first book, have him do it in the 7th, and everything ties up nice and tightly. these books were all written by one person, and within a short period of time. but even if we extend the period of time, we start to run into problems. for instance, george lucas couldn't even keep historical data straight in the star wars series.

of course, even the highest degree of internal consistency doesn't say much about the historical accuracy of the text, does it? fiction can be internally consistent. but it's not always. perfectly consistent might even be a hint that something is fiction -- but so would a certain degree of inconsistency.

...and stretching context beyond belief? well. who knows what to make of that.

jar writes:

It was not always immediate, but the message was meant to be acted on right then.... The idea that God had to leave clues in obscure language with a people that have been dead for thousands and thousands of years for folk today or even in our future is just plain silly. God is perfectly capable of reaching folk today in our own media and those living in the future in theirs.

and it's important to remember this. prophecy is meaningless outside of its historical context: the people it was given to. and reading that makes it nonsense to the person listening to the prophet speak is nonsense itself.

jar writes:

Again, the problem is not the Bible or its contents, it is the readers misunderstanding.

the problem is that some of the readers of the bible also added to it. clearly, matthew reads isaiah 7 as applying to christ, when clearly it should not.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 11-30-2010 6:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 12-02-2010 6:37 PM arachnophilia has responded
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1956 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 60 of 255 (594228)
12-02-2010 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by arachnophilia
12-02-2010 5:50 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 18
OMG - Arach !!! Welcome back Please please stick around - I have seriously missed your posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2010 5:50 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
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