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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 61 of 255 (594232)
12-02-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by arachnophilia
12-02-2010 6:08 PM


Re: What IS prophecy?
spidey writes:

well, the thing is that it's possible for neatly tied prophetic story arcs in singular works of fiction.

Exactly, as I tried to point out, a great example is the story of Joseph and the dreams. It's also though a pretty clear indication that the story is fiction.

spidey writes:

prophecy is meaningless outside of its historical context: the people it was given to.

The idea that there is prophecy in the Bible that is still meant to come true has several serious flaws.

First, it makes the god character look stupid.

But an even bigger issue is that by definition, it is still all failed prophecy.

Failed prophecy has long been a serious issue within Christianity, one that seems to usually get solved by redefining words, making stuff up and by just sticking fingers in ears and going "La-La-La".

A great example was ICDESIGN trying to use Matthew 24:35 as support that the stories in the Bible are absolutely true.

As I tried to point out in Message 41, if they use Matthew 24:35 as proof that all is hunky dory then they have to deal with Matthew 24:34, and that's a really big issue. Instead of just admitting that the author of Matthew got it wrong, they have spent almost 2000 years trying to tap dance around the definition of "generation".

It is mental gymnastics like that that tend to drive folk away from the Bible and Christianity.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 62 of 255 (594246)
12-02-2010 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by arachnophilia
12-02-2010 6:08 PM


Re: What IS prophecy?
and it's important to remember this. prophecy is meaningless outside of its historical context: the people it was given to. and reading that makes it nonsense to the person listening to the prophet speak is nonsense itself.

And still one would have to define prophecy, one day a city will fall to the ground by an erthquake is not a prophecy to vague and can be fitted anywhere. A true prohecy should be like the one by that woman last month where she said that the 3d world ware would start in november 2010, she still could be right even though the month has passed if the ware starts in korea some time soon the actual start would be in november 2010 when they bombed that island. The prophecy is relativly straight forward, not vague, it gives a time line, and the event. Most of the biblical prophecies lack most or all of those things. Like the prophecies of nostradamus they are all so vague on the event, and time you can fit them anywhere. What is it with those old prophets.

Could they not lift a newspaper or describe things better.

if i where a bronze age person i would make a prophecy like this.

I have been given a vision by the lord for the end of time, it will take place fare in to the future, horsless chariots shall rome the streats, and metal birds will fly trough the sky, at night the streets will be lit by the lords own light traped in a glowing box, and then the mettal birds will turn on man droping eggs containing gods wrath the fire that will come from them will burn cities to the ground and bilnd anyone that looks uppon the flame, the fire will rise to the hight of the tallest mountins. When the fires will die down and the ashes fall to rest only the loliest creatures will survive the bugs, cocroaches and the like will infest the erth as food for the evil satan.

That is a prophecy a bronze age man cannot look at the newspaper and see the date but he can offer a bit of a description of the time and what will happen.


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 Message 59 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2010 6:08 PM arachnophilia has responded

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 63 of 255 (594271)
12-02-2010 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
12-02-2010 6:37 PM


Re: What IS prophecy?
(cavediver: thanks! i've very recently been un-banned)

jar writes:

Exactly, as I tried to point out, a great example is the story of Joseph and the dreams. It's also though a pretty clear indication that the story is fiction.

i don't think that's the only indication, but it helps, yes. however, i don't think we should take fulfilled prophecy as an indication of fiction, presuming me can find any that's not internally fulfilled.

jar writes:

The idea that there is prophecy in the Bible that is still meant to come true has several serious flaws.

well, the major flaw would be that prophecy is meant for the initial audience, not the reader thousands of years later. that said, i don't find the idea wholly out of the realm of possibility. for instance, you find several apocalyptic prophecies describing the end of the world, as well as several messianic prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled, which you have kindly listed in this thread already.

jar writes:

First, it makes the god character look stupid.

well, bits like the destruction of tyre do, yeah. the failed ones don't go over so well. but the deuteronomist (see above) places the blame for failed prophecy on the prophet -- a kind of football double standard if you ask me. make that touchdown, thank god. fumble, blame yourself.

jar writes:

A great example was ICDESIGN trying to use Matthew 24:35 as support that the stories in the Bible are absolutely true.

As I tried to point out in Message 41, if they use Matthew 24:35 as proof that all is hunky dory then they have to deal with Matthew 24:34, and that's a really big issue. Instead of just admitting that the author of Matthew got it wrong, they have spent almost 2000 years trying to tap dance around the definition of "generation".

well, see, i have a problem with that. that reading can't possibly be right. matthew was written after that generation had already passed. either it means something else, or matthew is purposefully making christ out to be a false prophet.


אָרַח

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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3894
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 64 of 255 (594275)
12-02-2010 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by arachnophilia
12-02-2010 9:08 PM


Re: What IS a shift key for?
My current forum policy - You will start using your "shift" key properly or I will be giving you suspensions.

No replies to this message. It's not debatable issue.

Adminnemooseus


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 65 of 255 (594280)
12-02-2010 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by frako
12-02-2010 7:22 PM


putting a date on prophecies
frako writes:

And still one would have to define prophecy, one day a city will fall to the ground by an erthquake is not a prophecy to vague and can be fitted anywhere. A true prohecy should be like the one by that woman last month where she said that the 3d world ware would start in november 2010, she still could be right even though the month has passed if the ware starts in korea some time soon the actual start would be in november 2010 when they bombed that island. The prophecy is relativly straight forward, not vague, it gives a time line, and the event. Most of the biblical prophecies lack most or all of those things.

admittedly, i'm no scholar of prophecy. but most that i'm familiar with are pretty seated in their direct audiences. the more interesting stuff -- the messianic and apocalyptic prophecies -- are frequently more open-ended, yes.

but at least one extremely important example discussed in this thread has a definitive clock. actually, it is the clock. let's look at isaiah 7 again.

quote:
And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to war against it; but could not prevail against it. And it was told the house of David, saying: 'Aram is confederate with Ephraim.' And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the forest are moved with the wind. Then said the LORD unto Isaiah: 'Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear-jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the fullers' field; and say unto him: Keep calm, and be quiet; fear not, neither let thy heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah. Because Aram hath counselled evil against thee, Ephraim also, and the son of Remaliah, saying: Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set up a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeel; thus saith the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass. For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people; And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not have faith, surely ye shall not be established.'

i've bolded the parts that are the actual prophecy in the chapter. the cliff-notes versions goes like this: israel and aram are waging war against judah, and god tells the prophet isaiah to go talk to ahaz, kind of judah, and let him know that god's on judah's side and not to worry about israel and aram because they're going away.

this btw actually happens. it's a real historical event. assyria conquers israel (and aram, and a lot of other small city-states). the tribes of israel never return. unmentioned by the prophecy is that very soon afterward, babylon conquers assyria and then judah, but whatever. but isaiah steps it up again:

quote:
And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.' But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.' And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also? Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken. The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.'

so the sign that this prophecy is coming to pass will be a specific child named "imanuel" or "god is with us" (ie: "on our side"). by the time he becomes a man, probably ritualistically at age 13 or so, the problem of israel will be dealt with.

now, i can't find too much scholarly work to back this up, but there's some quirks of the grammar of the key verse in hebrew. first is that the woman is referred to as הָעַלְמָה, the woman, without being previously mentioned. this indicates that she was likely present to the conversation -- indeed, later context points to isaiah's own wife. second is that the verbs seem to me (i could be very wrong here) to switch tense. הָרָה looks like simple present tense to me, and וְיֹלֶדֶת implies a future tense. meaning, that i read it as saying "the woman is pregnant and will bear a son".

this puts a clock of about 13 from the prophecy to the assyrian exile of israel, and about 85 until they cease being a distinct group of people.

now, i don't have the exact dates for you, but ahaz stopped ruling around 715 BCE, and the assyrian exile of israel happened roughly 720-ish BCE, during his reign. so that's probably close enough to be reasonably accurate.

does this prophecy have anything to do with jesus? no, most assuredly not. and i hope the reason why is now completely obvious: it completely breaks the clock on the prophecy. having a sign that occurs 700 years after the prophecy is foretells makes no sense.

Edited by arachnophilia, : edit: SoRrY MoOsE, DiDn"t SeE YoUr MeSsAgE UnTiL AfTeR I HaD AlReAdY PoStEd.


אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 66 of 255 (594514)
12-03-2010 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by arachnophilia
12-02-2010 9:39 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
now, i don't have the exact dates for you, but ahaz stopped ruling around 715 BCE, and the assyrian exile of israel happened roughly 720-ish BCE, during his reign. so that's probably close enough to be reasonably accurate.

And for this prophecy to be a true prophecy it would also haveto be written before the events took place. Actual evidence from someplace else then the bible say a letter or something mentioning the prophecy dating before the events.

does this prophecy have anything to do with jesus? no, most assuredly not. and i hope the reason why is now completely obvious: it completely breaks the clock on the prophecy. having a sign that occurs 700 years after the prophecy is foretells makes no sense.

That is one big problem as we have seen with other prophecies mentioned people ignore some statments in the prophecy so they can "stick it" where they want it to fit.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 67 of 255 (594526)
12-03-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by frako
12-03-2010 5:53 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
frako writes:

And for this prophecy to be a true prophecy it would also haveto be written before the events took place. Actual evidence from someplace else then the bible say a letter or something mentioning the prophecy dating before the events.

well, yes, but now we're shifting goal posts. isaiah was almost certainly written after the assyrian exile. however, nearest i can tell, this represents most of biblical prophecy: given a time-frame, but already "fulfilled" by the time the book was written, or internally fulfilled as part of the story.


אָרַח

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Tram law
Member (Idle past 2963 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 68 of 255 (594530)
12-03-2010 8:10 PM


If the Word Of God is so unchanging, then why are there so many versions of the Bible?

And if the Bible is so universal, why then are there so many different interpretations of each single verse in the Bible?

You have one verse read by a hundred people, you'll get a hundred different interpretations. If the Bible was so immutable, why should there be this many interpretations and versions?

It seems to me that there shouldn't be. Because the omnipotence of God shouldn't allow for it.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 69 of 255 (594634)
12-04-2010 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by arachnophilia
12-03-2010 7:54 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
well, yes, but now we're shifting goal posts. isaiah was almost certainly written after the assyrian exile. however, nearest i can tell, this represents most of biblical prophecy: given a time-frame, but already "fulfilled" by the time the book was written, or internally fulfilled as part of the story.

So all those prophecies would have to be cut from the list of furfilled prophecies in the bible. If not i can prophecise that A german will be borne around 1900 that will shake the world with his army. I must be a prophet if you look at the history Hitler fits the prophecy.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 70 of 255 (594637)
12-04-2010 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tram law
12-03-2010 8:10 PM


You have one verse read by a hundred people, you'll get a hundred different interpretations. If the Bible was so immutable, why should there be this many interpretations and versions?

Why do you think the first bibles where only in latin and only the priests could interpret them because they could say yust about anything and get their support from the bible.

The curch wants taxses well look at what Jesus said give to the emerror what is his and to god what is his.

The curch wants some land that looks nice, well lets take a look what the bible says about witches lets make them confess and take their land, there is no mention in the bible that one cannot do the same to a corpse of someone who hase a good piece of realestate.

And the same goes for all in the same family as the bible.

The Quoran is basicly the same as the bible both in the storries and in its use. On one hand you have the fundies who think that blowing themselves up and killing some infidels at the same time will get them straight before alla and he will give them 72 virgins. The others think that if your body is mutulated you can never see Allah, and if you do die in battle with infidels you will get 72 Grape vines from Allah. The third kind tihinks all kiling is bad infidel or no infidel ware or no ware.

And all 3 read the same book, same print.... And moste know the book by hart every story every line.
So how can you expect the ch bible to be interpreted the same when most ch never read it from cover to cover and only look for anwsers in a specific line ignoring the context.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 71 of 255 (594644)
12-04-2010 9:15 AM


Topic folk, Please
Let's head back towards the topic if possible.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 72 of 255 (594920)
12-05-2010 4:36 PM


I choose to believe...you choose not to
Most of you assume that since I didn't respond to the gospel according to jar that I am unable to validate claims that Jesus fulfilled prophecy. The only reason I even eluded to them to begin with was to encourage Meldinoor that his upcoming debate with Buzsaw could have a lot of content to sink his teeth into and not to give up on his faith just yet.

I find it amusing that many of you who don't believe ANYTHING written in the bible has one iota of validity yet you are perfectly willing to give jar a pass to give his version as long as he opposes mainstream Christianity.

I have come to understand that it is a complete waste of time to refute the opinions on this forum. No matter what I say there will be at least a half dozen of you who makes sure it gets buried in a sea of BS.

A prophecy doesn't have to be in context with the entire paragraph it is encased in. That is one reason why so many like jar get it wrong.

All of the scriptures I posted seem to be fulfilled by Jesus.
He was born of a virgin,He was born in Bethlehem, He rode into town on a donkey,He was beaten to a bloody pulp,
...... so-forth and so-on. I am not going to spend a bunch of wasted time trying to convince a group of God-bashers something they refuse to put their faith in.

...At any rate: Merry CHRISTmas to all !!
(written 2010 years after....)

Edited by ICDESIGN, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 73 of 255 (594921)
12-05-2010 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 4:36 PM


I choose to read what is there...you choose not to
So again, you have no support for your position other than what you choose to believe and even admit that you simply cull material out of context to support your beliefs.

Got it.

AbE:

Let's see if we can explore this further.

ICDESIGN writes:

A prophecy doesn't have to be in context with the entire paragraph it is encased in. That is one reason why so many like jar get it wrong.

Why not?

The idea of Prophecy was to tell the audience that heard the prophet some message from God that they were expected to act on.

Why wouldn't the total context of what the prophet was saying be relevant?

What possible use is a prophecy that can only be understood and recognized after the fact?

Why would God bother giving a prophecy for folk living today to folk that died thousands and thousands of years ago?

If prophecy is meant to be understood, why bury it within a bunch of unrelated material?

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Edited by jar, : add material


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6577
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 74 of 255 (594926)
12-05-2010 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 4:36 PM


Re: I choose to believe...you choose not to
written 2010 years after....

Do you have any evidence for when this christ guy was supposedly born, or even know the time of year?

About as much evidence as your prophecy evidence?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 75 of 255 (594930)
12-05-2010 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 4:36 PM


Re: I choose to believe...you choose not to
as he opposes mainstream Christianity.

And which of the hundreds of Christian denominations is mainstream?

He was born of a virgin,He was born in Bethlehem, He rode into town on a donkey,He was beaten to a bloody pulp,
...... so-forth and so-on. I am not going to spend a bunch of wasted time trying to convince a group of God-bashers something they refuse to put their faith in.

Evidence that any of this myth is true, please.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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