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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 76 of 255 (594931)
12-05-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by bluescat48
12-05-2010 5:12 PM


Facts versus the topic
It really does not much matter if any of those are factual or not, the issue is whether or not the material presented was written as a prophecy.

I don't think anyone doubts that you can take the actual facts of someones life and then go back and find pieces parts in older writings that when taken out of context could be said to support those facts, and in many cases that is even admitted as in the example from Matthew.

It is certainly possible to manufacture prophecy after the fact.

The question is "Were the specific passages he mentioned intentionally written originally as prophecy of Jesus?"


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by bluescat48, posted 12-05-2010 5:12 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 77 of 255 (594950)
12-05-2010 7:13 PM


A second look at some of the so called prophecies.
ICDESIGN mentioned yet again several incidents that he considers to be prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. Among them were "He was born of a virgin,He was born in Bethlehem, He rode into town on a donkey,He was beaten to a bloody pulp,
...... so-forth and so-on. "

Some we have already dealt with. for example the mention of riding into town on an ass clearly is nothing but a created after the fact prophecy, a false prophecy.

The one related to being born in Bethlehem was also addressed, it simply is not there just as the one about him being beaten to a pulp. They are NOT there in the Old Testament parts ICDESIGN mentioned as his support.

BUT WAIT...There's more.

The things he mentions as important and as some kind of support for Jesus have two common characteristics.

First, they seems to have made no impression or even deserve mention in the earliest writings. They get no play, no mention at all until we come to the Gospels and there, as demonstrated, there is lots of evidence that they are just plain manufactured, the writer taking stuff out of context to try to establish legitimacy.

Second, they are really pretty much irrelevant to Jesus message. If he had walked into town or rode a speckled horse, it would have changed nothing. If he had been born in Jezreel or Jerico, it would have changed nothing.

What value do the so called prophecies add?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by arachnophilia, posted 12-05-2010 7:45 PM jar has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 78 of 255 (594952)
12-05-2010 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by frako
12-04-2010 7:05 AM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
frako writes:

So all those prophecies would have to be cut from the list of furfilled prophecies in the bible. If not i can prophecise that A german will be borne around 1900 that will shake the world with his army. I must be a prophet if you look at the history Hitler fits the prophecy.

sure, it'd just look silly coming so late. really, most of biblical prophecy fits this description because the books were last altered, or compiled, well after the subject matter they dealt with. it's possible that this has the affect of adding fictionalization to the accounts -- we really can't tell if isaiah, who lived before the assyrian exile, said what he's supposed to have said when he was supposed to have said it. the prophets themselves don't seem to have written the book, rather, their later disciples. sort of like with christ.

but it's an easy mistake to think that the power of prophecy is in prediction. it's not.


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 79 of 255 (594954)
12-05-2010 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by frako
12-04-2010 7:17 AM


frako writes:

Tram law writes:

You have one verse read by a hundred people, you'll get a hundred different interpretations. If the Bible was so immutable, why should there be this many interpretations and versions?

Why do you think the first bibles where only in latin and only the priests could interpret them because they could say yust about anything and get their support from the bible.

don't be silly. the first collections of biblical texts were in hebrew, and greek for the christian stuff. the jewish people actually have a quite rich tradition of heatedly debating interpretation. allowing the general population access was an important enough concern that when greek became the common language, the jewish scholars set to work translating the bible into greek. this is some 200 years before christ.


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(1)
Message 80 of 255 (594955)
12-05-2010 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 4:36 PM


context is everything
ICDESIGN writes:

A prophecy doesn't have to be in context with the entire paragraph it is encased in. That is one reason why so many like jar get it wrong.

...uh, sorry, but yes it does. you can't just bend an author's words to mean whatever you like. christians love to claim their adoration of the bible, but strangely have little issue with misrepresenting it. if you really have no problem understanding why context is important, i leave you with the following bible verses:

quote:
There is no God

Deuteronomy 32:39


quote:
There is no God

First Kings 8:23


quote:
There is no God

Second Kings 1:16


quote:
There is no God

Second Kings 5:15


quote:
There is no God

Second Chronicles 6:14


quote:
There is no God

Psalms 14:1


quote:
There is no God

Psalms 53:1


quote:
There is no God

Isaiah 44:6


quote:
There is no God

Isaiah 44:8


quote:
There is no God

Isaiah 45:5


quote:
There is no God

Isaiah 45:14


quote:
There is no God

Isaiah 45:21


i think the surrounding words are important. don't you?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICdesign, posted 12-05-2010 4:36 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ICdesign, posted 12-05-2010 8:20 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 86 by bluescat48, posted 12-05-2010 9:33 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 81 of 255 (594957)
12-05-2010 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
12-05-2010 7:13 PM


riding into jerusalem on (a) donkey(s)
jar writes:

Some we have already dealt with. for example the mention of riding into town on an ass clearly is nothing but a created after the fact prophecy, a false prophecy.

well, no. zechariah does say that messiah will enter jerusalem on a donkey (but not two donkeys as matthew has it, lol), and the point is that the coming messiah will be of humble origins.

but, um, it's just not exactly prophetic, in that it doesn't make someone the messiah. how many people do you suppose rode into jerusalem on donkeys the same day that christ did? hypothetically? nevermind the question of that that year. that decade, that century... or ever?

the important factor in zechariah 9 is what comes directly after that verse: the messiah will end all war and rule the world. ending all war would make someone the messiah. riding a donkey does not. matthew had to have done this on purpose -- how do you miss the big stuff for the sake of the insignificant?


אָרַח

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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 82 of 255 (594958)
12-05-2010 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by arachnophilia
12-05-2010 7:45 PM


Re: riding into jerusalem on (a) donkey(s)
Would just driving out the foreign powers and creating an independent Hebrew State even if it isn't "world peace" do?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by arachnophilia, posted 12-05-2010 7:45 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 83 of 255 (594959)
12-05-2010 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by arachnophilia
12-05-2010 7:36 PM


Re: context is everything
arachnophilia writes:

...uh, sorry, but yes it does. you can't just bend an author's words to mean whatever you like.

...uh, sorry but NO it doesn't. The author doesn't even know he is speaking a prophecy at the time.
He is usually making a totally different point.

i think the surrounding words are important. don't you?

Yes. When it isn't a prophecy, I totally agree with you.

Respectfully,
IC


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 Message 87 by bluescat48, posted 12-05-2010 9:36 PM ICdesign has not yet responded
 Message 88 by jar, posted 12-05-2010 9:38 PM ICdesign has responded

    
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 84 of 255 (594962)
12-05-2010 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 8:20 PM


Re: context is everything
...uh, sorry but NO it doesn't. The author doesn't even know he is speaking a prophecy at the time.
He is usually making a totally different point.
...
Yes. When it isn't a prophecy, I totally agree with you.

oh, of course. but you see, what i posted is prophecy. the authors just didn't know it at the time.


אָרַח

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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5398
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 85 of 255 (594963)
12-05-2010 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 8:20 PM


Re: context is everything
When it isn't a prophecy, I totally agree with you.

You're in Phoenix. right? Maybe 700 miles from me? Did you hear that THUNK just now? I think it's possible that you did.

That sound was my jaw hitting the floor after a supersonic fall caused by reading what I just quoted. You, some Arizonan with an internet connection, can tell true prophecy from other just by looking! And in a book that's more fictional than not. Remarkable.

Look up the term "confirmation bias," IC. Consider carefully if it could apply to you.


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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 86 of 255 (594964)
12-05-2010 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by arachnophilia
12-05-2010 7:36 PM


Re: context is everything
Just goes to show how ridiculous quote mining can be.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 87 of 255 (594967)
12-05-2010 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 8:20 PM


Re: context is everything
Yes. When it isn't a prophecy, I totally agree with you.

It is important whether it is a prophesy or not. The surrounding words are what makes the statement sensible. Otherwise it is nothing but a quote mine which is the problem with these so called prophesies, they can say anything the reader wants to make it say.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ICdesign, posted 12-05-2010 8:20 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 88 of 255 (594968)
12-05-2010 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICdesign
12-05-2010 8:20 PM


Re: context is everything
Maybe you missed these questions.

ICDESIGN writes:

A prophecy doesn't have to be in context with the entire paragraph it is encased in. That is one reason why so many like jar get it wrong.

Why not?

The idea of Prophecy was to tell the audience that heard the prophet some message from God that they were expected to act on.

Why wouldn't the total context of what the prophet was saying be relevant?

What possible use is a prophecy that can only be understood and recognized after the fact?

Why would God bother giving a prophecy for folk living today to folk that died thousands and thousands of years ago?

If prophecy is meant to be understood, why bury it within a bunch of unrelated material?

ICDESIGN writes:

The author doesn't even know he is speaking a prophecy at the time.

Huh?

When God sends a message to someone and says "Go say this" the person does not know he is speaking prophecy?

Are you sure you know what "prophecy" is?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ICdesign, posted 12-05-2010 8:20 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ICdesign, posted 12-06-2010 12:18 PM jar has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 236 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 89 of 255 (594970)
12-05-2010 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by bluescat48
12-05-2010 9:33 PM


Re: context is everything
bluescat48 writes:

Just goes to show how ridiculous quote mining can be.

yup. but rarely do fundamentalists admit what they're doing as openly as ICDESIGN just did right there.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by bluescat48, posted 12-05-2010 9:33 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 3056 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 90 of 255 (595060)
12-06-2010 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by jar
12-05-2010 9:38 PM


Re: context is everything
I can give some examples of what I'm talking about but first lets shift the spotlight to the one posing as the expert on scripture and the author of this thread.

jar, you claim to be a devout Christian but all I ever see you doing is talking smack about the bible and its claims. You completely deny we are sinners in need of a Savior. Devout Christian?

Do you believe their was prophecy written about Jesus Christ? If so show us what they are. What was Jesus referring to in Mark 14:49 when he said: " Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures."? (NAS)

IC


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 Message 88 by jar, posted 12-05-2010 9:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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