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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List')
nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 16 of 1043 (595021)
12-06-2010 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by cavediver
12-06-2010 5:30 AM


Re: why the fuck should arach be suspended for not using fucking capitals????
It is just one more step toward the inevitable domination of form over content.

</sarcasm>


Jesus was a liberal hippie
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by cavediver, posted 12-06-2010 5:30 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 17 of 1043 (595024)
12-06-2010 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by cavediver
12-06-2010 5:30 AM


Re: why the fuck should arach be suspended for not using fucking capitals????
'cause

AbE:

I really think this subject deserves discussion, not in relation to spidey's suspension, but as a general thread.

I do find it hard to read posts that are all lowercase. However, when the content is worthwhile I will gladly invest the extra effort needed.

We have few members here that actually have the Biblical and Hebrew knowledge shown by spidey. I cannot remember a single exchange with him where I did not come away with some new insight, new understanding, new pathway to explore.

Moose seems to really get bugged by form and also brevity, but in many cases I find that the content far outweighs any inconvenience and that often brevity is the best possible response.

But Moose has the power.

Edited by jar, : expand my points


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by cavediver, posted 12-06-2010 5:30 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Omnivorous, posted 12-06-2010 11:55 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1221 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 18 of 1043 (595048)
12-06-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
12-06-2010 9:54 AM


Re: why the fuck should arach be suspended for not using fucking capitals????
Literary and journalistic giants have resorted to all lower case text in an effort to wipe the slate clean stylistically, opening the writer's mind to the dictation of form by content. ee cummings is probably the most well known of those who went this route. Personally, I find it as easy to read as up-and-down text, perhaps because I've read so much of it.

Clearly, the assumption of language police powers by a debate moderator is inappropriate. A personal pet peeve should not dictate members' writing style. I frankly cannot understand why anyone would think otherwise. Like the TV, the personal solution is easy--turn it off.

Moose, don't read his posts. Let other moderators look after spidey.


Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio

Real things always push back.
-William James


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 12-06-2010 9:54 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 12-06-2010 12:01 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 1043 (595052)
12-06-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Omnivorous
12-06-2010 11:55 AM


D00d, it's M00se
You guys know we're talking about Moose, right? A wise man once said "the reign (of Moose) falls on the just and unjust alike." Arach is just lucky that his suspension came with a stated reason.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Omnivorous, posted 12-06-2010 11:55 AM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Omnivorous, posted 12-06-2010 12:24 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1221 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 20 of 1043 (595063)
12-06-2010 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
12-06-2010 12:01 PM


The reign falls on the just and unjust alike
Well, hell, I bitch about the weather, too.

The weather doesn't change, but I feel better.


Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio

Real things always push back.
-William James


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 12-06-2010 12:01 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 21 of 1043 (595078)
12-06-2010 1:18 PM


I have difficulty reading every post. I read backwards, forwards, upside-down with equal difficulty. I have a lot more difficulty with posters who don't know what a sentence is than I do with a few missing capitals.

I personally have to put more effort into the style than the content or my posts would look like they were written with an axe. I think everybody should be suspended but me.


"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 232 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(1)
Message 22 of 1043 (595185)
12-07-2010 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
12-06-2010 12:01 PM


Re: D00d, it's M00se
oh, and Moose, my name is spelled with a lowercase "a". please endeavor to at least capitalize my name correctly if you're going to suspend me for capitalization.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 12-06-2010 12:01 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 12-07-2010 9:39 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 23 of 1043 (595186)
12-07-2010 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by arachnophilia
12-07-2010 9:32 AM


Re: D00d, it's M00se
arachnophilia writes:

oh, and Moose, my name is spelled with a lowercase "a". please endeavor to at least capitalize my name correctly if you're going to suspend me for capitalization.

I guess I always get this wrong then. In English the names of people and places are capitalized, so regardless of what someone's login ID is, when I refer to them in a message I always capitalize it, so arachnophilia becomes Arachnophilia. But I also maintain case for the rest of the name, so ICANT remains ICANT.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2010 9:32 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 9:46 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2010 9:48 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 24 of 1043 (595187)
12-07-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
12-07-2010 9:39 AM


just in case ...
There are many similar usernames. I am jar, not Jar although JAR or J.A.R. might also be appropriate. It also depends on the medium, for example on a signet ring jRa might be most often seen.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 12-07-2010 9:39 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 232 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 1043 (595188)
12-07-2010 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
12-07-2010 9:39 AM


Re: D00d, it's M00se
I don't especially mind, Percy, it's just that of I'm going to be suspended for picky issues like capitalization, the person doing it should at least try to get the capitalization of my username correct. We have a few members here who do not capitalize their usernames, for whatever reason. For instance, right now, bluegenes, dwise1, jar, and subbie are all online. None of them capitalize their names.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 12-07-2010 9:39 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 1043 (595194)
12-07-2010 10:34 AM


Whine & Cheese
Is this a real Whine List? Looks like its all over but the shouting! Just to add my 2 cents, however.... I believe that all members of this forum should try and do everything within our power to make our posts as readable as possible. Occasionally, I make a mistake such as using a smaller case h for Him (my creator) or a larger case F (when referring to our father) Who may only be worthy of capitalization within the context of my belief)

Basically, I try my best to capitalize sentences only because I have not yet earned the right to be famous NOT doing it, such as ee cummings.


Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by bluegenes, posted 12-07-2010 4:22 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 731 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 27 of 1043 (595242)
12-07-2010 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Thugpreacha
12-07-2010 10:34 AM


Re: Whine & Cheese
Phat writes:

Basically, I try my best to capitalize sentences only because I have not yet earned the right to be famous NOT doing it, such as ee cummings.

Cummings capitalized like everyone else when he wrote prose, and often preferred to capitalize his name. He's distinctly irrelevant to the question of whether or not it's easier to distinguish between sentences on discussion boards when people capitalize their initial letters.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-07-2010 10:34 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2010 5:29 PM bluegenes has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 232 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 1043 (595253)
12-07-2010 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by bluegenes
12-07-2010 4:22 PM


Re: Whine & Cheese
bluegenes writes:

He's distinctly irrelevant to the question of whether or not it's easier to distinguish between sentences on discussion boards when people capitalize their initial letters.

would we be interested in discussing this question?

personally, i find that capitalization slows down not only my typing, but also my reading. minuscules ("lower case") were originally designed to aid in both, as we can typically recognize minuscules by their counterforms alone. for instance, compare reading a block of text in majuscule:

quote:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


to that same text entirely in minuscule:

quote:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


which one reads faster, and is easier on the eyes? keep in mind that the original greek and latin alphabets are all majuscule, and minuscules developed over time through several stages (rustic, uncial, half-uncial, etc) with the specific intention of aiding scribes in reading and writing large blocks of text. personally, i find that punctuation and spacing is more than sufficient to distinguish the beginnings and endings of sentences (many languages such as ancient greek and hebrew lacked these as well, btw), and context generally sufficient to distinguish proper nouns. before the invention of minuscule scripts, context was the only way to distinguish between proper and improper nouns. even after the invention of minuscule scripts, all nouns (and some verbs and adjectives) were generally capitalized.

i had sort of thought about putting together a new topic on this, going over the history of capitalization and whatnot, and a discussion about its relevance in a language that changes as fluidly as english -- and more importantly whether or not capitalization should be a suspendable offense. perhaps i will put it together when moose gets around to suspending me for this post.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by bluegenes, posted 12-07-2010 4:22 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by bluegenes, posted 12-07-2010 6:05 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 31 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-07-2010 9:23 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 9:37 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 731 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 29 of 1043 (595264)
12-07-2010 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
12-07-2010 5:29 PM


Re: Whine & Cheese
arachnophilia writes:

would we be interested in discussing this question?

Sure.

which one reads faster, and is easier on the eyes?

Speed-wise, the second is slightly better for me, and seems much easier on the eyes (in this color scheme, certainly). So, from your little experiment, I vote that we continue to use lower case as the basis.

Then, a bright idea would be to put capitals in at the beginnings of sentences to help distinguish between them, and perhaps for any words we choose to emphasise, then we can understand how and why practical modern English evolved.

In other words, we're back to square one, and both of your examples are worse.

arach writes:

i had sort of thought about putting together a new topic on this, going over the history of capitalization and whatnot, and a discussion about its relevance in a language that changes as fluidly as english...

The history would be interesting.

-- and more importantly whether or not capitalization should be a suspendable offense.

You'd be alone on the board if it were!

...perhaps i will put it together when moose gets around to suspending me for this post.

On past form, he seems to do it once every 8,000 or so non-capitalized posts, so you should be O.K. for a while.

Are you sure you aren't over-intellectualizing your non-capitalization, when it might just be a simple case of "I can't be bothered to hit the shift key?"

On the lighter side, I just remembered an old joke about capitalizing proper nouns. It can occasionally make a difference, as in:

"I helped my uncle Jack off a horse."

"I helped my uncle jack off a horse."

Not the best joke ever, but relevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2010 5:29 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2010 7:01 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 232 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 30 of 1043 (595283)
12-07-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by bluegenes
12-07-2010 6:05 PM


Re: Whine & Cheese
bluegenes writes:

In other words, we're back to square one, and both of your examples are worse.

if you hit "peek" on the above post, you can compare to a third example, the original text. the KJV bible i cited above capitalizes somewhat arbitrarily at the beginning of every verse regardless of punctuation or grammar. frequently, this results in a capital following a comma. this is somewhat representative of that period of english. earlier examples include frankly even more arbitrary capitalization schemes, often capitalizing the majority of the first letters. older still, capitalization is mostly absent, except for the first letter or any particular passage, similar to the way manuscript often illuminated the first letter. the modern system of capitalization wasn't locked in until roughly the 18th century.

the interesting point is not that we have added capitals, but rather that since their addition, we have consistently done away with capitals, all but excluding the first letters of proper nouns, and the first letter of a sentence. the trend is not towards caps, but rather away from. removing them entirely is simply the next logical step.

further, i find lack of capitalism not nearly as much of a deterrent to reading as i do poor post organization and line breaks. overly long paragraphs, or a bunch of short one-liners, do not scream "read this", and forgetting to add that extra space between paragraphs is even worse. for instance, many of the exceptional creationists PNTs here, copy-pastas, are generally quite unreadable thanks to poor formatting alone. correct capitalization cannot save them.

Are you sure you aren't over-intellectualizing your non-capitalization, when it might just be a simple case of "I can't be bothered to hit the shift key?"

perhaps. but i did say as much in the above post -- i find it much faster to type this way. the potential drawback here is that i am much more prone to typographical error. but an advantage is that it becomes much easier to edit my text, as i can rearrange clauses essentially at will.

however, for the record, i do in fact use my shift keys. when i type anything italic, for instance, i'm generally doing it in html (not bbcode), and the less-than and greater-than symbols require using a shift key.

On the lighter side, I just remembered an old joke about capitalizing proper nouns. It can occasionally make a difference, as in:

"I helped my uncle Jack off a horse."

"I helped my uncle jack off a horse."

Not the best joke ever, but relevant.

certainly. and it comes up sometimes in the scriptural debates. capitalization i mean, not jacking off a horse. as i mentioned above, even modern hebrew lacks any kind of case difference.

the square aramaic script used in biblical hebrew developed from proto-semitic in the jewish scribal community much the same way capitalis rustica derived from the capitals script used for roman, well, capitals -- it was simply easier to write; more suited to ink and paper/papyrus/vellum. later scribes, like rashi, developed scripts much like the roman uncials, and used them to set their comments apart from the formal scriptural text. further, there is even a modern cursive handwritten script design for quick and fluid writing. i can personally confirm that it's far easier to write by hand.

but the mixture of majuscule and minuscule scripts just never happened in hebrew, probably due to the lack of a tradition illuminating manuscripts. and so, even modern hebrew lacks case. this fact frequently comes up when discussing other gods, found in the old testament. the masoretic hebrew makes no distinction between the elohim in the "gods of canaan" and the elohim that refers to yahweh.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by bluegenes, posted 12-07-2010 6:05 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
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