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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
Panda
Member (Idle past 3825 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 196 of 299 (595058)
12-06-2010 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Kairyu
12-06-2010 11:33 AM


Re: please stop
WSW24 writes:
I've been reading the first 6 pages, and this last one. Is it that hard to avoid debate? There are plenty of topics to do that.
Some people like to tell their stories here, sometimes that can be difficult for them. Please don't ruin this topic by arguing. I'm fine with believing people reacting on people expressing doubt in a polite manner, but this is going to far.
What you posted contains much sense.
I lend my support to your comment and hope others agree aswell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Kairyu, posted 12-06-2010 11:33 AM Kairyu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Kairyu, posted 12-06-2010 12:32 PM Panda has replied

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 197 of 299 (595064)
12-06-2010 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Panda
12-06-2010 12:11 PM


Re: please stop
Thanks you for your support.
I've been looking for a topic like this. Didn't expect it to find it on this subforum to be honest. Doesn't this belong in the faith and belief subforum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 12:11 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 1:01 PM Kairyu has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3825 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 198 of 299 (595074)
12-06-2010 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Kairyu
12-06-2010 12:32 PM


Re: please stop
WSW24 writes:
Doesn't this belong in the faith and belief subforum?
Possibly.
I think it is in Coffee House because Meldinoor didn't want to actually debate anything, and therefore didn't need Moderators' 'discussion approval'.
Maybe it should be moved, but I think that would be Meldinoor's decision to ask.
Perhaps Meldinoor will request a move after reading your posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Kairyu, posted 12-06-2010 12:32 PM Kairyu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Meldinoor, posted 12-06-2010 2:47 PM Panda has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 199 of 299 (595099)
12-06-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Panda
12-06-2010 1:01 PM


Moderator permission requested
If moving this topic to a different subforum will reduce off-topic blather and make it easier for WSW24 and others to share their stories, then I would like to have this topic moved. Perhaps to Faith and Belief.
Thanks,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 1:01 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 2:52 PM Meldinoor has not replied
 Message 202 by AdminPD, posted 12-06-2010 6:43 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3825 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 200 of 299 (595101)
12-06-2010 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Meldinoor
12-06-2010 2:47 PM


Re: Moderator permission requested
If you ask in Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 (I think) or you might need to post the request in here.
Either way, a mod should see your request.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Meldinoor, posted 12-06-2010 2:47 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 201 of 299 (595117)
12-06-2010 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Minnemooseus
12-06-2010 5:29 AM


Re: A powerful testimony from Dawn Bertot?
Bottom line - Dawn, as best I can tell, everyone here (except maybe Buzsaw) thinks your are, for lack of a better phrase, badly incoherent. I think Buzsaw's perspective is pretty warped, but at least I can usually comprehend what he's trying to say (see here). Not is the case with you.
Obviously Buzsaw automatically agrees with Dawn because of their apparently shared beliefs, but not because of Dawn's alleged arguments. Early on, Buzsaw admitted to Dawn that he could not understand what Dawn had written and so asked for clarification. Dawn's response was the same as always (at least when he doesn't "respond" by insulting): he blew Buzsaw off.
Dawn Bertot is not (IMO) doing such such a testimony. Rather, he seems to be doing a strong job of demonstrating an irrational and incoherent version of faith. More of a powerful testimony for reasons to leave your faith.
An occupational hazard of participation in creation/evolution discourse is becoming thoroughly disgusted with the dishonesty of creationists and allowing that to color our perception of the entire religion. While we all too often have to deal with the worst of the worst, many creationists (in particular the much larger number who are followers and would not attempt to engage in c/e discussion except in misguided moments of hubris) actually do value truth, truthfulness, and honesty.
The problem for those creationists who value truth, truthfulness, and honesty comes when they start to encounter the dishonesty of "creation science". Nor is it an overnight awakening, but rather tends to be a long process, such as bluescat has described, in which questions arise which lead to study and thinking, which leads to more questions, etc.
For example, Dan Barker, "America's Leading Atheist", grew up a fundamentalist in a fundamentalist family -- eg, his mother would sing in tongues as she did her housework. He was personally called by God to the ministry and after graduating from bible college became an itinerate preacher, songwriter, and performer (he still gets royalties for his fundamentalist Christian songs). He started out believing there was only one way to believe, but as he visited different fundamentalist and "Bible believing" churches, he noticed that each congregation's beliefs differed in some way, such that something that he had always believed was absolute, wasn't. In a kind of a slippery slope, each such encounter took his clearly defined line of demarcation between what he believed and didn't believe and it moved that line slightly. Then the next encounter with another church also moved it slightly. And so on, until that line had moved greatly and he was finding himself thinking about and questioning most of what he believed. It took at a bit over two years before he finally came to questioning the most fundamental aspects of his former theology, including whether God even exists or not. His church's reaction to all his questioning probably did more to seal his fate than anything else as they effectively threw him out -- when I first heard his story on the radio, shortly after it had happened, his church had urged and convinced his wife to leave him; she fares much better in his book. His mother tried to talk him back into the fold, but a few direct questions from him caused her to realize that she really couldn't believe either. His father, a professional musician who had to give up his music when he converted, followed suit and was able to return to the music that he loved.
Glenn R. Morton, who has participated here in the past, is a professional field geologist and former YEC. Prior to starting work, his sole training in geology was from the ICR and he had written a number of articles for the Creation Research Society Quarterly. He hired a number of Christian Heritage College graduates (hence they were effectively ICR-trained as well). As a result, they were all subjected daily to rock-hard geological facts that they had been taught did not exist and could not exist if Scripture were to have any meaning. As a result, they all suffered crises of faith; Morton himself was driven to the verge of atheism, pulling himself back only by adopting a theology that was much more scientifically sound. His testimony can be found here, The Transformation of a Young-earth Creationist , and here, Why I left Young-earth Creationism, through his page, Personal Stories of the Creation/Evolution Struggle, which links to many other people's stories.
Carl Drews is a fundamental Christian and theological evolutionist whom I met on-line and he pointed me to his testimony, My Story. He had learned very early on that evolution poses no real problems for Christianity and his first encounters with "creation science" (via Chick Pubs' Big Daddy, the original, I'm sure, not the Kent Hovind rewrite out now) proved that they were lying through their teeth. He and his family joined a fundamentalist church whose work they loved, until the pastor started pushing "creation science" and actually advocated using lies and deception to do the Lord's Work, after which he could no longer remain there. I saw him in industry news recently wherein he had been studying the effects of wind on rivers as part of trying to understand the Parting of the Waters.
I also met Ed on-line and he pointed me to his story, My Search. He had converted and became a YEC who described it as a junkie would his drug. One day, he got a new series of tapes by a YEC (I seem to recall him later identifying that YEC as Kent Hovind) and was blown away:
quote:
After viewing them, I found my jaw on the floor. I truly expected these evolutionists to roll over and die after being presented with this battering of "facts" - they didn't! I was truly numbed and frankly, pretty upset with the manners of this "young-earther." I was forced to come to some serious conclusions that day.
. . .
I talked to my pastor (a young-earther), about my new discoveries. He warned me as so many other "creationists" have, that to continue on this path was dangerous and would only lead to me falling away from the faith. At times, that notion seemed true! He asked me, "do you want to end up like "R" (a college student) who now denies the faith after he tried to pursue scientific understanding?" That question hit me hard and weighed heavy on my heart; however, I would soon discover that that line of reasoning was also imaginary. Since then, I have corresponded with several Christians who have traveled the same path as I have. One thing that is always agreed upon is the damage young-earth creationism can do to souls; how many believers they have seen fall away. We have been taught that the Bible demands a young earth interpretation and when the facts of nature become inescapable - our faith becomes shattered! My pastor was wrong, and the opposite was the case. If "R" had been offered an alternative from the beginning, he would never have experienced the turmoil he went through. When "R" could no longer deny that the universe was billions of years old, the only option left for him was to deny the Bible. How many others have been disheartened in a like manner?
I met Merle Hertzler on CompuServe. Of the creationists there, he was unique: he was honest and actually engaged in honest discussion. Within one year, he was still there engaged in honest discussion, only now he was arguing for evolution instead of against it. Unfortunately, the link to his site is broken, but he made the switch when researching intermediate fossil claims and discovered that while he had been taught that none existed, the library was chock full of example after example in great detail. He had been lied to and was supporting a lie. His story taught me that honest creationists do not last long: they either stop believing in YEC, or they stop trying to argue for it, or they stop being honest.
I have several more, but I've gone on for too long already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-06-2010 5:29 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-06-2010 10:54 PM dwise1 has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 202 of 299 (595135)
12-06-2010 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Meldinoor
12-06-2010 2:47 PM


Topic Please
Participants:
The Coffee House is not a Free For All. All the Forum Guidelines still apply. The only difference is that this isn't a debate format. It is more of a conversational area (not chat). It is a place to take a break from the debate arena, but the basic rules still apply.
Stay on topic and always treat other members with respect. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.
Stay on topic. This thread is a place for people to present their personal deconversion experiences and discuss those experiences.
Did I mention stay on topic.
Meldinoor:
There's no need to move this to another thread since it isn't really a debate item. Just call for moderation help whenever you need it or refer offenders back to this post.
Be sure to stay on topic yourself because people tend to follow the lead of the originator.
Hopefully this will help.
Thanks
AdminPD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Meldinoor, posted 12-06-2010 2:47 PM Meldinoor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-06-2010 7:38 PM AdminPD has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3063 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 203 of 299 (595137)
12-06-2010 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Meldinoor
11-27-2010 4:42 PM


Welcome to Ignosticism
Until there is a clear and unambiguous definition of the term "god", it doesn't really make sense to be anywhere on the scale.
I think this is the fundamental argument for your current transition into ignosticism - which everyone should, if they're honest to themselves, have this position.
A belief in god/s not only requires faith that there is something that can be refered to as a god (whatever that means), but, if you pick one particualr religion, you must have faith in every human being that testified to the veracity of the scriptures they're preaching about.
To me, it's not so much as "you have faith in god," it's "you have faith in who ever exposed you to a particular god concept."
And since humans are full of shit, it's safe to assume that humans have always been full of shit.
In any case, I have always been skeptical of religion, and thus god/s, so I can't fully grasp the conversion crisis you must be feeling. If it was up to me, I'd just tell you, "Stop it dude, just stop giving a fuck," but I can imagine that doesn't help in the least. So I'm out of ideas, but not pot. So if you ever want to convert to Rastafarian, I will gladly help you in that conversion.
Good luck bro...
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Meldinoor, posted 11-27-2010 4:42 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 204 of 299 (595138)
12-06-2010 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by AdminPD
12-06-2010 6:43 PM


Re: Topic Please
Stay on topic. This thread is a place for people to present their personal deconversion experiences and discuss those experiences.
Did I mention stay on topic.
I dont see a line in this post , that says do not respond to this post, so I hope I am not out of order here.
So, as not to deviate from Ms present discussion, is there a place I can respond to post 193, 194 and 203, that have been presented in this thread?
I don't want to go further off topic
Thanks for your consideration in this matter
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by AdminPD, posted 12-06-2010 6:43 PM AdminPD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by AdminPD, posted 12-07-2010 5:01 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 205 of 299 (595139)
12-06-2010 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by frako
12-06-2010 6:34 AM


Re: Is it possible that......
Ok lets take a look at the evidence.
Evidence for Evolution - Homology
Evidence for Evolution - Embryology
Evidence for Evolution - Observed Natural Selection
Evidence for Evolution - The Fossil Record
Evidence for Evolution - Genetics
Evidence for a desighner:
Order and law - NO THEY CAN SPAWN ON THEIR OWN
Life - NO SO FAR THERE IS NO NEED TO INVOKE GOD IN THAT
The universe - NO WE HAVE THEORIES THAT EXPLAIN THE CURRENT STATUS AND SOME EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP
I SEE NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD OR A DESIGHNER AND A SHIT LOAD OF EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION
Hopefully Admin will provide a place for the posts I have mentioned to be discussed in detail. I truely dont mean to be rude, but it is becoming increasingly obvious you fellas dont even understand simple reasoning practices and are unable to understand the concepts of indirect and indirect implications and logical conclusions of simple arguments
Il say it one more time, then let admin decide a place or not.
In the absence of that which is absolutely provable, due to the fact that the direct evidence of those events no longer exist, one is forced to proceed with what can be logically deduced, against any physical realites.
Order and change follow the same rules and produce the same type of evidence, for thier conclusions
This simple point cannot be demonstrated to be false or refuted. Its as simple and hard as that
Dawn Bertot
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by frako, posted 12-06-2010 6:34 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Admin, posted 12-06-2010 8:20 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13084
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 206 of 299 (595142)
12-06-2010 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Dawn Bertot
12-06-2010 7:50 PM


Re: Is it possible that......
Hi Dawn Bertot,
You expressed concerns about staying on topic. One way to stay on topic is to only respond to messages or parts of messages that are on-topic. Your error in this message was responding to Frako's off-topic message.
This thread is not about evolution. It is about deconversion experiences. If someone cites pedophile priests as a deconversion reason, that does not change the topic to pedophile priests. In the same way, if someone cites evolution as a deconversion reason, that does not change the topic to evolution.
The topic in this thread is not evolution. It is deconversion experiences.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-06-2010 7:50 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4302 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 207 of 299 (595146)
12-06-2010 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Dawn Bertot
12-06-2010 3:13 AM


Re: Catch 22
This is not the place to discuss the points of design, evolution or anything else except my deconversion. I simply stated why I left the fantasy world and entered the realistic world.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-06-2010 3:13 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 208 of 299 (595150)
12-06-2010 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by dwise1
12-06-2010 4:46 PM


Re: ANOTHER powerful testimony from Dawn Bertot?
Glenn R. Morton, who has participated here in the past, is a professional field geologist and former YEC. Prior to starting work, his sole training in geology was from the ICR and he had written a number of articles for the Creation Research Society Quarterly. He hired a number of Christian Heritage College graduates (hence they were effectively ICR-trained as well). As a result, they were all subjected daily to rock-hard geological facts that they had been taught did not exist and could not exist if Scripture were to have any meaning. As a result, they all suffered crises of faith; Morton himself was driven to the verge of atheism, pulling himself back only by adopting a theology that was much more scientifically sound. His testimony can be found here, The Transformation of a Young-earth Creationist , and here, Why I left Young-earth Creationism, through his page, Personal Stories of the Creation/Evolution Struggle, which links to many other people's stories.
I took the time to read each one of these articles and they are what I expected, sloppy, inefficient examples of why anyone should abandon faith in God or the Bible
The simplest example would be the idea of the YEC illustration. No where does one need to conclude that God is not real and the Bible is not accurate, because some may have been to hasty in thier conclusions and interpretations of the age of the earth, the flood and other examples.
These people and those like them dont take the time to think though all the options and evidence before abandoning long cherished and supportable beliefs
Not taking the miraculous into account is one of the first and common mistakes when trying to interpet the scriptures as some sort of geological text book
No one would have any clue for example one month later, that the Reed Sea had been divided and people walked across on dry ground
Who for example coming upon the burning bush, one month later would have any clue that at a previous date it was said to have been burning and on fire.
The gap theory concerning these matters is probably the best explanation between what we see and what the scriptures is representing concerning Gods intervention
Or simply God could have worked things in a miraculous way that would not left all the usual clues that one would normally find had it happened naturally
LOOKING FOR PHYSICAL CLUES, WHERE THE MIRACULOUS IS OFTEN INVOLVED, MAY NOT ALWAYS PRODUCE THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ONE WISHES FOR.
The results of the flood may have been the same as its initiation, miraculous in nature. he may have altered things to thier original state of existence, as is indicated in many other miracles
No where is one ordered to believe or is it taught in the Bible that earth is only six thousand years old. These are conlcusions that may not be justified, due to a lack of what God has chosen to leave out of his knowledge revealed to man
Why should this be a cause or reason for complete abandonment
Getting this right or wrong has never been a requirement from God.
Sorry Dewise you and your friends will have to provide better excuses and support for a reason to abandon the God of the bible and the abundant evidence to its favor
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by dwise1, posted 12-06-2010 4:46 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by nwr, posted 12-06-2010 11:23 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 210 by dwise1, posted 12-07-2010 1:25 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 213 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2010 2:47 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6444
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 209 of 299 (595154)
12-06-2010 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Dawn Bertot
12-06-2010 10:54 PM


Re: ANOTHER powerful testimony from Dawn Bertot?
Dawn Bertot writes:
I took the time to read each one of these articles and they are what I expected, sloppy, inefficient examples of why anyone should abandon faith in God or the Bible
Just post your own deconversion experience here.
What's that? You haven't deconverted yet? Then this is not the thread for you.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-06-2010 10:54 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 210 of 299 (595163)
12-07-2010 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Dawn Bertot
12-06-2010 10:54 PM


Re: ANOTHER powerful testimony from Dawn Bertot?
I took the time to read each one of these articles and they are what I expected, sloppy, inefficient examples of why anyone should abandon faith in God or the Bible
Which tells us that you obviously did not read those articles. Or just could not understand them. If you need, please have somebody who knows how to read read them for you and tell you what they say -- be sure to have them first read your assessment quoted above. No wonder some many forum members thought that you were a non-native English speaker with minimal English skills.
The simplest example would be the idea of the YEC illustration. No where does one need to conclude that God is not real and the Bible is not accurate, because some may have been to hasty in thier conclusions and interpretations of the age of the earth, the flood and other examples.
OK, so you're also ignorant about your anti-evolution allies, the YECs. Well, there's a simple remedy for that. Oh yeah, that's right, you don't believe in actually learning something.
The YEC position is firmly entrenched in specific interpretations of the age of the earth -- "If the earth is more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning." John Morris, now President of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), at the 1986 International Conference on Creationism -- and in Noah's Flood. To them, the only alternative is atheism. That includes your own wishy-washy unbiblical (to them) attempts to undermine the Word of God.
Now of course, to the general public they will do as IDists do. They will avoid getting into any details as to what their "creation model" actually is. They will even foist their "Creator" off as some generic idea when in reality they mean and will only accept their fundamentalist idea of YHWH. Actually, they are very much like you and other IDists in that respect, as IDists make a big show to the public that ID also accepts non-supernaturalistic design having been conducted by space aliens, whereas in reality they really only mean their Designer to be supernatural, specifically their own ideas of God, albeit not as strictly defined as It is for YECs. Having so much in common with YECs, it's amazing that you understand them so poorly. BUt then, why should they fare any differently?
Sorry Dewise you and your friends will have to provide better excuses and support for a reason to abandon the God of the bible and the abundant evidence to its favor
One of these days, Dawn, if you are really lucky, you will finally get a clue. It will change your life so much for the better.
The YEC mentality is extremely black-and-white, either-or. They preach constantly that if the earth is older than 10,000 years, then Scripture has no meaning and you should become an atheist. If Noah's Flood never happened, then Scripture has no meaning and you should become an atheist. If even one single error is found in the Bible, then none of it is true and you must throw it in the trash and become an atheist. Sure, they are very seriously mistaken and wrong in holding those beliefs, but if you try to help them see reason then they will viciously rebuke you and cling to those self-destructive beliefs in spite of any and all efforts to help them.
So when a YEC does start to learn that the earth is older, that the Flood didn't happen, that the Bible is not perfectly free of error, what choice do they have. Sure, we could try to show them other alternatives, but these are YECs we're talking about. It has been firmly and deeply ingrained in them throughout their fundamentalist religious experience, which for many of them has been their entire life, that their only choice, their only option, is atheism.
Why, then, do you have the audacity of acting surprised when a YEC deconverts to atheism? Not that they all do; for many the deconversion is to another form of theism, yet you paint them all as having abandoned God, even though you should have known better and would have if you had actually done that reading that you claimed to have.
The other side of the coin is why an atheist would ever want to convert to fundamentalism or even to less severe forms of Christianity. Long observed dishonesty, mainly from creationists and their Siamese twins the IDists. The Christian environment that condones and even encourages dishonesty, lies, and deception (read Carl Drew's story yet?). The Christian environment of hatred for and intense fear of the truth. Having to embrace teachings that I know for a fact are false (eg, the claims of "creation science"). Having to overcome a multitude of theological difficulties that I have with Christianity. And finally, having to become a monster in order to embrace the belief that dead family members whom I love dearly will suffer eternal torment -- it was examination of this belief that turned the tide for Dan Barker's mother.
Dawn, observe, listen, think, try to understand. Try to get a clue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-06-2010 10:54 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-07-2010 8:19 PM dwise1 has replied

  
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