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Author Topic:   Deconversion experiences
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 195 of 299 (595041)
12-06-2010 11:33 AM


please stop
Hello. I am a rather new member here. I did post a little, but I intend to tell my tale here. But however..
I've been reading the first 6 pages, and this last one. Is it that hard to avoid debate? There are plenty of topics to do that.
Some people like to tell their stories here, sometimes that can be difficult for them. Please don't ruin this topic by arguing. I'm fine with believing people reacting on people expressing doubt in a polite manner, but this is going to far.
I can't go posting here in the middle of a unrestrained argument.

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 12:11 PM Kairyu has replied

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 197 of 299 (595064)
12-06-2010 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Panda
12-06-2010 12:11 PM


Re: please stop
Thanks you for your support.
I've been looking for a topic like this. Didn't expect it to find it on this subforum to be honest. Doesn't this belong in the faith and belief subforum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 12:11 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Panda, posted 12-06-2010 1:01 PM Kairyu has not replied

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 211 of 299 (595164)
12-07-2010 2:24 AM


I have been observing this chain of events a few times: story > reply from a theist/atheist > reply from original poster, or ANOTHER theist/atheist> discussion > debate.
To keep everyone's freedom, I am okay with some friendly exchange, but most of those conversations eventually become full scale debate.
I know some theists strongly disagree with some of the deconversion arguments, such as dawn, but the subject is complicated and highly subjective. Because this is a non debate forum, I would personally consider repeated attacks on the stories infringing on their freedom. If a debate is needed, invite them to start a topic. After all, debate is voluntary in this forum.
Also,there are several ongoing debates, and they are not exactly friendly. Could you please move it to a new topic or stop now?
I'm planning to post my story as I got time. It will take a while to write, and it's morning right now, and I have stuff to do today.
I maybe can introduce myself. I am WSW24 on this forum, although it's a makeshift name that needs changing.
I am 18 years old, and I come from the Netherlands, so I might make a spelling error on occasion. I'm also autistic, but not in a heavy manner, although it has a impact in my life, and also on my manner of thinking. It is most likely the reason I am overly formal right now, because I am new to this place.
I am must likely going ahead and start once the issues in this topic have lessened.

Replies to this message:
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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


(1)
Message 215 of 299 (595207)
12-07-2010 12:36 PM


my own story WARNING is very long
I hope the arguments can be finished soon. Writing this for a while now, and it may be one of the longest posts ever.
Regardless, I better tell what exactly has happened, because it's a bit of a strange tale. It's going to take a while to write all of it down. It's also a life story of me, because everything hinges together in a complex way.I try to be brief, but some things are really unorthodox, and can't be easily understood. My apologies to writing a extremely long post, but there's no other way possible.
Let's start with my childhood. I am being raised in a christian family.Our church is fairly liberal, having no problems with some things of the bible not being literally true.My primary school was also Christian, and I was raised with bible stories in class, although it is a tolerant school who is open-minded.
I also got a interest in science and how the world work even since I started to read. I'm a fast reader, and I am intelligent. So I pretty much grabbed any informative book I could get hold of. Sometimes I tired myself out when I thought to much about things I couldn't comprehend.
I was also lonely, and had trouble being social because I was autistic(then unknown). I liked fantasy stories, so around being nine I started to have my own fantasy. It was something about fighting something evil of with my mind. It was a silly kid game at first, that I vaguely enjoyed. It coexisted with my belief in god, and my scientific flavored way of thinking. It may not make sense to the people reading this, because it indeed doesn't. It happens in a child's mind.
Science and faith began to meet. I had learnt about evolution, and I accepted it, and viewed part of the bible as symbolic. I didn't give it much thought at the time, I wasn't constantly busy with Christianity. I expressed doubt for the first time when relevation was read in church when I was 14. I found it horrid, and wondered why god would do this. I felt bad because I considered my thoughts rebellious. I changed to to a semi-christian, being partially(unknowingly) agnostic. I actually casually thought by myself that I didn't really believe, but having no strong emotions about it, I drifted back into semi-christian again.
Back to my ''fantasy''. Yes, I am aware much is going on at the same time. Once again, it is not supposed to be logical. It's the reason why regular faith was put a bit on the backburner.
It was once innocent, but in my teens it had grown to a nightmarish psychosis which I managed to keep secret. It was no longer fun. I doubted it, but didn't cease believing it. I rather would be wrong with believing, be troubled by it but keep living normally otherwise, then wrong with disbelief, which would equal the end of the world. No kidding. I had invented Pascals wager myself without knowing it.
It might not be surprising I consider it a weak fear argument that can justify anything today. Atheists happily dream up a absurd scary belief to demonstrate why Pascals wager works on fear. I actually believed in one.
Throughout the years, I began to develop obsessive compulsive disease. For people not famillar with this mental disorder I refer to wikipedia: Obsessive—compulsive disorder - Wikipedia
this link also has information: Intrusive thought - Wikipedia
It is needed to know the general meaning of the term to understand the rest.
It was mild for several years, having only little compulsions like to ''purify'' my food with thought. In the summer of 2008 , I had been tired by the ''fantasy'' , and my personal life being taxing because of Autism, which causes easy exhaustion.
I am not going in great detail, but over the course of a few months, the compulsions radically worsened. It went to things like ''do not play video games'', ''do not eat something'', and ''Sit still for 3 minutes before leaving this room''. The range of them became ever more versatile.
In the end, I had dropped out from school. In a week's time at home, they enlarged to the point I wasn't able to do anything. All things fun had a compulsion forbidding them.I had to sit on the toilet for a hour one day.
Eventually, I was able to lessen it. In spring and summer 2009 I recovered, still suffering from OCD. It was discovered that I had autism, and I am began to connect the dots together that my ''fantasy'' was all in my mind. Ceasing to believe it was extremely temping, but I held on to fear. Yet, I became closer and closer to disbelief. I was going to return to school next year. Although the compulsions never ended, I was optimistic.
Shorty before the new school year began, new trouble arose. And that brings me what has driven my to write all of this down. I got religious compulsions. I've later read on Wikpedia that 40% of the people who
I was cycling one day. Following the news and politics, I was thinking as usual. This day, I was being critical on Islam, calling it ''medival'''. But my mind was still unstable. It latched on my view of the Islam version of god. Some Christians may disagree, but I believe that Islam believes in the Christian God, albeit in a different way. With that in mind, it merged with my weak Christian belief, and it caused a compulsion. It was basically a thought voice(It was a thought, but compulsions can be convincing regardless.), giving me a punishment. It was only a mild one, but I was freaked out by it. And the "voice" didn't go away anymore. On the positive side, it overshadowed the orginal Compulsions, a milestone. The bad news was that this new religous OCD wasn't really sane either.
From late august to mid December (Only a year ago, the exact end isn't even a year ago) I suffered from it. It was a od combination of Christianity and Islam through western eyes. I actually began to read the Bible myself for the first time, was sort of forced to do it. I am not really willing to go in detail on it much right now.
The thought voice and compulsions were cruel in the beginning, while at times it was more rational, and acted like a conscience, because God was generally belovelent in my faith. It had a hair trigger temper for ''wrong'' thoughts though, and frequently contradicted itself Around October it was a little bit better, was even vaguely positive
The voice and compulsions tended to vary in tone with the day. My mood and mental energy were of large influence. It also reacted on what real world output it got. It was nicer when I heard something liberal and positive, and it became more harsh and irrantional when I heard something more orthodox. The bible also tended to have this effect, in the more difficult parts of it.
Around December I was exhausted from school, and it began to get worse. I managed to keep it bearable enough to function, but it once again began to forbid many things. I began to doubt that is was real, but I didn't have the strength to stop it. I prayed that if this was not real, that the real God would put a end to it.While focusing my mind on the nice god most people believe helped a little, the OCD didn't end.
Eventually the stress got so bad I snapped.For about 10 minutes I completely lacked any belief in God. I prayed for God to help me with this, but I was feeling manically happy, and more free then ever.
I managed to patch my faith together a bit in regular, liberal Christanity later that day. However, since that day I doubted. My faith was severely damaged. I tried to deny it for a few months, but I lost the will to believe. I tried to believe, but I didn't feel comfortable with it. It also sometimes still was slightly compulsive, the taint of that experience didn't got away.
After a year, I define myself as agnostic atheist. However, that's just a label I prefer. I am more of a agnostic, but I am growing into a atheistic worldview.
My apologies for the theists here for the coming part.
Nowadays, I associate atheism with rational thinking, with a clear, down to earth mind. Believing, and anything supernatural by extensions, reminds me of those compulsion, having to believe something in a absolute manner, even if you don't feel happy with it.
I will be ending here. I am nearing exhaustion, this took really long to write. I hope I didn't exceed the letter limit.
Edited by WSW24, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 12:48 PM Kairyu has replied
 Message 217 by onifre, posted 12-07-2010 1:53 PM Kairyu has not replied
 Message 240 by articulett, posted 12-12-2010 1:23 AM Kairyu has replied

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 218 of 299 (595220)
12-07-2010 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Panda
12-07-2010 12:48 PM


Re: my own story WARNING is very long
Thanks.
I will post more when I feel like it. Right now I am a little to tired for it. I was focusing on the events that made me as I am today.
I've still got to describe this year in greater detail. Over the months I created some of my own arguments that trouble me about Christianity. To put it mildly, I bounced about the belief spectrum, and I've read most of the common arguments know, as well I know the basic common views people can take.
I'm still angry at times about last year. How could could my faith mutate so much? I prayed to God to help me if it was my own mind in a early stage. Yet in the end, I was only able to break free in a moment of doubt. I'm also rather cynical when people talk about being ''guided by god'' because of what I had to go through.. I find the line between your own minds imaging of god, and possibly actual influence from him to be very blurry. Does it even exist at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 12:48 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 229 of 299 (595905)
12-11-2010 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Blue Jay
12-10-2010 10:45 AM


Re: Bluejay's Deconversion Story
Well, I found it interesting regardless. Because my process was quite harsh, I am interested how a ''tame'' deconversion works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Blue Jay, posted 12-10-2010 10:45 AM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 230 of 299 (595908)
12-11-2010 8:29 AM


I'm been noticing this tread has been rather silent since the deconversion discussion opened. Since the other topic has all the debate, this one is getting a bit obsolete.
About myself, there have been events this week.On the same day I wrote my post ,I had a talk with my mom. I explained the how and why of my loss of faith. She understood me, but she was rather sad that she wasn't able to give me any answers for my questions. It was painful, and we both cried. After the conversation I realized it was done. I had become a atheist.
I call myself a atheist now, while in reality I am still a little agnostic, my manner of thinking tends to be naturalistic and pragmatic. I do find my belief the absolute truth for everybody, and I am not sure if it's permanent. But it's what I truly believe, and I am being relieved that I am honest to myself now. It still feels a little unwieldy though.
Is there anybody who has a reaction on my story? I would like to talk a bit more about it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Panda, posted 12-11-2010 8:57 AM Kairyu has not replied
 Message 232 by GDR, posted 12-11-2010 11:12 AM Kairyu has replied

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 233 of 299 (595936)
12-11-2010 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by GDR
12-11-2010 11:12 AM


You're the first theist reacting on this, I must admit I felt a little nervous after the first lines. Thankfully, you understood me. I have thought it through, and I will go on thinking about it.
Besides my own experience, I also have another argument for it. I should share that one later, although it's a fairly cynical argument, and it's unrefined. But first I react to you.
Trying to be a good person is exactly what I would like to do. It's just that I felt my faith to be hollow after what happened. To be able to believe.. you have to well.. believe it.
I know the message of Christ is one of love. It would be foolish to deny that. But when Europe was purely Christian, it was by no means perfect. At least not better then Asia before 1500. Still, this is a subject worthy of debate.
Funny that you bring morality up. It's one of the main things I thought about. Once again, I should talk about it, but I to tired to do it now.
But thanks for your reply. I still respect Christanity. Some of it's teachings are good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by GDR, posted 12-11-2010 11:12 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 236 of 299 (595952)
12-11-2010 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by nwr
12-11-2010 12:41 PM


He did not insult me, so there's no need to insult him. This isn't a debate, so I would like to keep it friendly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by nwr, posted 12-11-2010 12:41 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by nwr, posted 12-11-2010 2:40 PM Kairyu has replied

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 239 of 299 (595964)
12-11-2010 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by nwr
12-11-2010 2:40 PM


Oh, my bad then.

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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 244 of 299 (596008)
12-12-2010 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by anglagard
12-12-2010 1:57 AM


Re: jar? Purpledawn? Moose? GDR?
I agree with you. I've met Christians, and was a Christian,who accepted everybody. I also met Christians who were a little bit more conservative, but they were very kind people regardless.
Some atheists should try to look more about the positive effects of believing. Even when some parts of the bible mean you don't like it, several other parts hold a good message. I dislike blind bashing. Not everything is black and white, even when anti-religion.

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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 259 of 299 (596057)
12-12-2010 4:24 PM


gay rights? off-topic.
I might note you guys are being off topic.. make a topic about gay tolerance, don't do it here in detail.Please.

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Taz, posted 12-12-2010 4:35 PM Kairyu has not replied

  
Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 271 of 299 (596279)
12-14-2010 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by articulett
12-12-2010 1:23 AM


Re: my own story WARNING is very long
Willy Wonka's actor has OCD to? Hrm, that's a new one to me. Actually, the wikipedia article states even Maarten Luther allegedy suffered from unpleasant intrusive thoughts.
This is somewhat saddening. I sometimes wonder if many people suffer from it in a mild manner, especially when they are under heavy pressure.

This message is a reply to:
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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 275 of 299 (596666)
12-16-2010 12:21 PM


The other argument.
I am just have finished watching the youtube series of evid3nc3. It was a interesting series of video's. It filled some holes for me. You don't always become a true atheist without a gradual process.
I commented there, and detailled my other argument in the comments. I am going to do some copy pasting, to put it on here to.
First things first, my argument leans of a theistic evolutionists view. Young earth creationism also doesn't make sense to me.
A major argument some atheists may hold, but that I largely formed by myself is as follows: we are beings with biological brains. I've seen no evidence or function for a soul. And yet, because we were created with evolution.. Even monkeys display basic vices as jealousy and anger. To summarize, we're flawed by nature. And our rationale is ease to influence as well, and emotions cloud our judgement. I'm just wondering..
In the bible God is shown to be disappointed with humans. It seems he didn't expect it to happen like it did at times. But humans are flawed creatures, and we had to build civilization from the ground up, in a often harsh world. But human cultures that developed independent from each other show the same flaws in humanity. What I am wondering is.. how did God expect this setup to go right? And he would be able to see what would happen before creation.God is also omnipotent, he could create us in a infinite number of ways. And in the end, God found humanity so sinful, that he resorted to have Jesus atone for humanity. And if this does not make sense to me.. And it's the core teaching. If this does not make sense.. nothing does. There also other things I find odd in the bible, that add insult to injury. It makes it seem even more strange to me.
Obliviously, this argument is still very unrefined, but the more I learn about human psychology, and the workings of the brain, the more convinced I get..

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 12-16-2010 12:33 PM Kairyu has not replied
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Kairyu
Member
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 278 of 299 (596931)
12-18-2010 9:30 AM


dealing with stuff
I have to say, I'm rather relieved I am now open about my atheistic thoughts, but it's still very confusing. Plus I am still a little in limbo. Being atheist has implications on thoughts about the bible, and life in general. I'm still a little afraid to take a firm atheistic stance on them. It's going to take a while before I've sorted it all out.
On a general note, I have been posting in this topic often lately. I would like to post more on the forum, but I am not really really to debate about certain things. Also haven't got much experience in it. Any suggestions?
Now I have taken a definitive stance on it, I could start by reviving my old topic of a few months ago about our biologically flawed nature.

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Panda, posted 12-18-2010 9:48 AM Kairyu has not replied
 Message 280 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2010 10:07 AM Kairyu has replied

  
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