Deconversion experiences

I have been observing this chain of events a few times: story > reply from a theist/atheist > reply from original poster, or ANOTHER theist/atheist> discussion > debate.To keep everyone's freedom, I am okay with some friendly exchange, but most of those conversations eventually become full scale debate.I know some theists strongly disagree with some of the deconversion arguments, such as dawn, but the subject is complicated and highly subjective. Because this is a non debate forum, I would personally consider repeated attacks on the stories infringing on their freedom. If a debate is needed, invite them to start a topic. After all, debate is voluntary in this forum.Also,there are several ongoing debates, and they are not exactly friendly. Could you please move it to a new topic or stop now?I'm planning to post my story as I got time. It will take a while to write, and it's morning right now, and I have stuff to do today.I maybe can introduce myself. I am WSW24 on this forum, although it's a makeshift name that needs changing.I am 18 years old, and I come from the Netherlands, so I might make a spelling error on occasion. I'm also autistic, but not in a heavy manner, although it has a impact in my life, and also on my manner of thinking. It is most likely the reason I am overly formal right now, because I am new to this place.I am must likely going ahead and start once the issues in this topic have lessened.

Hi WSW24,Welcome to EvC! I know you've been here for a few months already, but I hadn't welcomed you yet, so there you go. I'm glad you've decided to share some of your experience with us, and I look forward to reading it.I agree that this thread got out of hand for a little while, and I'm partly to blame for that. Don't worry too much about the arguments that flare up every now and then, just ignore them if you don't think they're relevant to the topic. I think moderators have helped make it clear enough what this thread is and isn't about, so hopefully it'll come back on track.Respectfully,-Meldinoor

But of course the same feeble excuses you put forward for why it looks like your God doesn't exist and why it looks like your holy book is rubbish would do just as well for any dumb narrative with some sort of wizard or god or pixie involved in it in some way.Shouldn't the One True Religion look truer than the proposition that, for example, there are magical winged pigs flying round my head right now but I can't see them because they're using their magical powers to make themselves invisible?But since your religion looks no truer than that, there is no justification for believing it to be more or less true than the idea about the invisible flying pigs.---When one looks at the excuses made for one's pet preferred god, one realizes that there is nothing in this respect that makes one's pet god special; and that the special thing about gods in general, the thing that distinguishes them from mustard or bicycles or income tax, is that they need excuses.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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So, as not to deviate from Ms present discussion, is there a place I can respond to post 193, 194 and 203, that have been presented in this thread?

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I don't want to go further off topic

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As per Rule #2: Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.Either start a new topic or let it go.Thanks
AdminPD

I hope the arguments can be finished soon. Writing this for a while now, and it may be one of the longest posts ever.Regardless, I better tell what exactly has happened, because it's a bit of a strange tale. It's going to take a while to write all of it down. It's also a life story of me, because everything hinges together in a complex way.I try to be brief, but some things are really unorthodox, and can't be easily understood. My apologies to writing a extremely long post, but there's no other way possible.Let's start with my childhood. I am being raised in a christian family.Our church is fairly liberal, having no problems with some things of the bible not being literally true.My primary school was also Christian, and I was raised with bible stories in class, although it is a tolerant school who is open-minded.I also got a interest in science and how the world work even since I started to read. I'm a fast reader, and I am intelligent. So I pretty much grabbed any informative book I could get hold of. Sometimes I tired myself out when I thought to much about things I couldn't comprehend.I was also lonely, and had trouble being social because I was autistic(then unknown). I liked fantasy stories, so around being nine I started to have my own fantasy. It was something about fighting something evil of with my mind. It was a silly kid game at first, that I vaguely enjoyed. It coexisted with my belief in god, and my scientific flavored way of thinking. It may not make sense to the people reading this, because it indeed doesn't. It happens in a child's mind.Science and faith began to meet. I had learnt about evolution, and I accepted it, and viewed part of the bible as symbolic. I didn't give it much thought at the time, I wasn't constantly busy with Christianity. I expressed doubt for the first time when relevation was read in church when I was 14. I found it horrid, and wondered why god would do this. I felt bad because I considered my thoughts rebellious. I changed to to a semi-christian, being partially(unknowingly) agnostic. I actually casually thought by myself that I didn't really believe, but having no strong emotions about it, I drifted back into semi-christian again.Back to my ''fantasy''. Yes, I am aware much is going on at the same time. Once again, it is not supposed to be logical. It's the reason why regular faith was put a bit on the backburner.It was once innocent, but in my teens it had grown to a nightmarish psychosis which I managed to keep secret. It was no longer fun. I doubted it, but didn't cease believing it. I rather would be wrong with believing, be troubled by it but keep living normally otherwise, then wrong with disbelief, which would equal the end of the world. No kidding. I had invented Pascals wager myself without knowing it.It might not be surprising I consider it a weak fear argument that can justify anything today. Atheists happily dream up a absurd scary belief to demonstrate why Pascals wager works on fear. I actually believed in one.Throughout the years, I began to develop obsessive compulsive disease. For people not famillar with this mental disorder I refer to wikipedia: Obsessive—compulsive disorder - Wikipediathis link also has information: Intrusive thought - WikipediaIt is needed to know the general meaning of the term to understand the rest.It was mild for several years, having only little compulsions like to ''purify'' my food with thought. In the summer of 2008 , I had been tired by the ''fantasy'' , and my personal life being taxing because of Autism, which causes easy exhaustion.I am not going in great detail, but over the course of a few months, the compulsions radically worsened. It went to things like ''do not play video games'', ''do not eat something'', and ''Sit still for 3 minutes before leaving this room''. The range of them became ever more versatile.
In the end, I had dropped out from school. In a week's time at home, they enlarged to the point I wasn't able to do anything. All things fun had a compulsion forbidding them.I had to sit on the toilet for a hour one day.Eventually, I was able to lessen it. In spring and summer 2009 I recovered, still suffering from OCD. It was discovered that I had autism, and I am began to connect the dots together that my ''fantasy'' was all in my mind. Ceasing to believe it was extremely temping, but I held on to fear. Yet, I became closer and closer to disbelief. I was going to return to school next year. Although the compulsions never ended, I was optimistic.Shorty before the new school year began, new trouble arose. And that brings me what has driven my to write all of this down. I got religious compulsions. I've later read on Wikpedia that 40% of the people whoI was cycling one day. Following the news and politics, I was thinking as usual. This day, I was being critical on Islam, calling it ''medival'''. But my mind was still unstable. It latched on my view of the Islam version of god. Some Christians may disagree, but I believe that Islam believes in the Christian God, albeit in a different way. With that in mind, it merged with my weak Christian belief, and it caused a compulsion. It was basically a thought voice(It was a thought, but compulsions can be convincing regardless.), giving me a punishment. It was only a mild one, but I was freaked out by it. And the "voice" didn't go away anymore. On the positive side, it overshadowed the orginal Compulsions, a milestone. The bad news was that this new religous OCD wasn't really sane either.From late august to mid December (Only a year ago, the exact end isn't even a year ago) I suffered from it. It was a od combination of Christianity and Islam through western eyes. I actually began to read the Bible myself for the first time, was sort of forced to do it. I am not really willing to go in detail on it much right now.The thought voice and compulsions were cruel in the beginning, while at times it was more rational, and acted like a conscience, because God was generally belovelent in my faith. It had a hair trigger temper for ''wrong'' thoughts though, and frequently contradicted itself Around October it was a little bit better, was even vaguely positiveThe voice and compulsions tended to vary in tone with the day. My mood and mental energy were of large influence. It also reacted on what real world output it got. It was nicer when I heard something liberal and positive, and it became more harsh and irrantional when I heard something more orthodox. The bible also tended to have this effect, in the more difficult parts of it.Around December I was exhausted from school, and it began to get worse. I managed to keep it bearable enough to function, but it once again began to forbid many things. I began to doubt that is was real, but I didn't have the strength to stop it. I prayed that if this was not real, that the real God would put a end to it.While focusing my mind on the nice god most people believe helped a little, the OCD didn't end.Eventually the stress got so bad I snapped.For about 10 minutes I completely lacked any belief in God. I prayed for God to help me with this, but I was feeling manically happy, and more free then ever.I managed to patch my faith together a bit in regular, liberal Christanity later that day. However, since that day I doubted. My faith was severely damaged. I tried to deny it for a few months, but I lost the will to believe. I tried to believe, but I didn't feel comfortable with it. It also sometimes still was slightly compulsive, the taint of that experience didn't got away.After a year, I define myself as agnostic atheist. However, that's just a label I prefer. I am more of a agnostic, but I am growing into a atheistic worldview.My apologies for the theists here for the coming part.Nowadays, I associate atheism with rational thinking, with a clear, down to earth mind. Believing, and anything supernatural by extensions, reminds me of those compulsion, having to believe something in a absolute manner, even if you don't feel happy with it.I will be ending here. I am nearing exhaustion, this took really long to write. I hope I didn't exceed the letter limit.Edited by WSW24, : No reason given.

Hi WSW24. Welcome to EvC. Not even close. Your post was a very interesting read - thank you for sharing.

Ha! You haven't meet Rrhain yet. Your post is just his opening thoughts. - Oni

Thanks.I will post more when I feel like it. Right now I am a little to tired for it. I was focusing on the events that made me as I am today.I've still got to describe this year in greater detail. Over the months I created some of my own arguments that trouble me about Christianity. To put it mildly, I bounced about the belief spectrum, and I've read most of the common arguments know, as well I know the basic common views people can take.I'm still angry at times about last year. How could could my faith mutate so much? I prayed to God to help me if it was my own mind in a early stage. Yet in the end, I was only able to break free in a moment of doubt. I'm also rather cynical when people talk about being ''guided by god'' because of what I had to go through.. I find the line between your own minds imaging of god, and possibly actual influence from him to be very blurry. Does it even exist at all?

That is worthy of a thread all of its own.

To stay on topic here, I assure you I read and understood each article, now simply point to the agrument/s in these articles that would shake my beliefs in the Bible or a personal GodYour very good Dewise1 at making assertions and implying this or that, but you never seem to make an actual argument. You ramble on and on and act as if that is a substitute for an actual argumentTo assist in my deconversion, provide the points or point in these articles that would help my disbelief alongNow notice, I dont need another discourse on someone elses beliefs, but why I need to recant based on somepoint they have madeIn most of those instances, cited by individuals, they like many others had no foundation of reason or scripture, to start withThey are sloppy examples of why a person should not believe in the Bible or Gods wordDeconversion for them was due to a lack of formal reasoning ability, not unlike yourselfDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

hi dawn, i'm a little late to the thread and honestly didn't go look for the articles. and don't much care to, either. i've heard plenty of stories about losing faith based in a poor understanding of scripture -- and many of the vehement atheists i've talked to have an understanding of the scriptures that is just as rudimentary and flawed as your average fundamentalist christian.that said, i've also heard some good stories about losing faith based on proper, legitimate, academic understanding of the scriptures. they say that loss of faith is actually the major obstacle in seminary school -- there's a very high drop out rate once people begin to truly understand the bible. i can confirm that this is a very real challenge, from my own studies into the bible.i suggest that if you really want to challenge your faith, you should study the bible. and i mean, really study it. not that stuff they do in church. find a good translation, or better yet, learn some hebrew. take a bible-as-literature class. study the history of the ancient near east, and read some literature from the surrounding nations. find commentaries, especially the jewish ones, and read those. or, stick around here long enough.Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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אָרַח

He did not in fact claim nor imply that your views would ever be altered in the slightest by the exercise of rational thought.

Well I guess I was lucky. I had the cream of the crop, in the nature of Bible scholars, theologians and apologists. Ive been studying considering, and debating these issues for nearly 45 years and never seen, with one exception any isuues that would cause me to think twice about it.The only one I think that could be offered is actually in the form of an observation, not an argument.That being the csae that miracles were so prevelant in the Bible, but seem to have "vansihed"Also, an idea I have considered at times, is that , if God is our father and that he loves us, what kind of father would go out of his way to make absolutely no direct contact with his child.While these are not reasons to ignore the weath of evidence in the scriptures, its manuscript preservation, its history and numerous other evidences. It does make one wonder and is a test for some, of real faith.After all of this it comes down to the heart of its doctrine, the Psalms, the Proverbs, The prophets, the Law, the Gospels and the NT letters, specifically Romans."For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. " 2 peterMaintaing this assurance even to the point of the sword and fireIts textual preservation and the history concerning its events, cooroborated by outside sourcesSo the preponderances that I have offered, fade in light of the more abundant evidenceDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

I just got your joke last night. Dawn, the perpetually incomprehensible, called clearly and intelligibly written essays "sloppy". You can't make up irony like that! I arrived at my assessment from your statements about those articles which demonstrated conclusively that you did not know what they said. Now with this post I am truly astounded at the depth and extend of your total lack of understanding plain English. To paraphrase the Organian leader, it is truly painful to watch beings such as yourself flounder helplessly and cluelessly. Yet again, it's incoherent Gish-Gallopping Dawn saying that. How much more irony can we stand? Just what the hell are you talking about? That particular idiotic statement seals the deal: you have absolutely no idea what those articles said. Obviously, we have to explain it all to you. Though I have no doubt that you will yet again be totally incapable of understanding plain English. Please excuse me for a moment while I stifle my inner Organian again.The people in those stories were YECs. That stands for Young-Earth Creationists. Despite your totally ignorant assertion (Message 208 "No where does one need to conclude that God is not real and the Bible is not accurate, because some may have been to hasty in thier conclusions and interpretations of the age of the earth, the flood and other examples."), among YECs it is simply not the case of some having been to {sic} hasty in thier {sic} conclusions and interpretations of the age of the earth, the flood and other examples. Rather it's the entire fracking movement! What part of young-earth completely escapes your grasp? And they've not been hasty, but rather they have been very industrious making up false claims to bolster their young-earth teachings -- which are actually almost purely anti-evolution and anti-any-other-science-that-conflicts-with-YEC -- , continuously organizing campaigns to sway public opinion, deceptive "debates" to fool the public into supporting their cause, authoring state laws, and pursuing court cases. You know, all that stuff that IDists have learned from the YECs. Those false young-earth claims and beliefs are not abberations, but rather they lie at the very core of the YEC belief system. And it is what they raise their children on. Those articles show what happens when those children are exposed to reality and realize that they had been lied to.BTW, I agree with your basic assessment in that sentence, as I stated, but you were typically being too busy being completely clueless to notice. I agree that YEC's false YE claims should have no bearing on questions of God's existence or the Bible's accuracy. Those YEC beliefs are the product of fallible human interpretation, including that most pernious YEC belief that if YEC is not true then the Bible is a lie and God doesn't exist. Rather, if those fallible human interpretations are wrong, then that just means that they are wrong and need to be either corrected or dropped in favor of interpretations that do not depend on contrary-to-fact claims. But YECs are instead taught that they need to abandon their faith, effectively that those fallible human interpretations are infallible.The authors of those articles started out YECs. Then they learned that YEC is false. What was it that threatened their faith? YEC. What did they deconvert from? YEC. What is the basic message of those articles? That YEC poses a very real danger for faith.Oh, and what did they deconvert to? Yes, some became atheists, but did Glenn Morton? Or Steve Smith? No, they did not. In fact, I would be very surprised if some didn't deconvert to a form of Christianity virtually identical to your own form. Since you present yourself as being so dead-set against deconversion, does that mean that you are dead-set against a YEC with beliefs that you clearly do not agree with deconverting to your own form of Christianity?Dawn, please, try to get a clue. It really is very painful to have to watch beings misbehaving as incredibly cluelessly as you do. {OFF-TOPIC - NO REPLIES, if for no other reason, what is said in message 225 just below. - Adminnemooseus}Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Red "off-topic" message.

Deconverting others is not the explicit function of this topic, although if some believer was truly looking for a reason to loose faith, the topic probably could help.If you truly wish to pursue the above quoted theme, you should propose a new topic of such theme. Or you're welcome to do such at the Free For All forum, which does not have to go through the PNT process.The message I'm replying to makes it clear to me that you have nothing to contribute to this topic. Therefore, you should not post any more messages to this topic - As in, you'll get suspended if you do.No replies to this message, by anyone (also a suspension provoking offense). Any replies need to go to the "Whine List" topic.AGAIN, DAWN, NO MORE POSTING TO THIS TOPIC!Adminnemooseus