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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 1 of 566 (595332)
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


Adiminnemosseus writes:
Deconverting others is not the explicit function of this topic, although if some believer was truly looking for a reason to loose faith, the topic probably could help.
If you truly wish to pursue the above quoted theme, you should propose a new topic of such theme. Or you're welcome to do such at the Free For All forum, which does not have to go through the PNT process.
How about a discussion examining (some of) the alledged reasons for deconversion
An exploration into the individual justifications concerning these reasons.
Against a Biblical perspective
This may not fly with Percy, I know not
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 57 of 566 (596069)
12-12-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Coragyps
12-09-2010 11:42 AM


And where are you, by the way? I'd like your take on some of these many answers you have here.
Sorry, real world stuff, ill try and get caught up as soon as possible
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Coragyps, posted 12-09-2010 11:42 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 58 of 566 (596070)
12-12-2010 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Coragyps
12-09-2010 11:42 AM


And where are you, by the way? I'd like your take on some of these many answers you have here.
Ive read the entirity of the posts and I have failed to see a valid 'reason' offered as to why I should deconvert from the things I have studied and been taught through the years.
If I have missed something in its exactness and someone feels that it should be offered again in argument form, I would be willing to address it, without hesitation.
I believe someone asked why I did not accept the "other testament" of Jesus Christ. Simply because it cannot be supported or sustained in even the slightest fashion from a historical or archaeological standpoint
Not that some things are in question or debatable, but nothing can be confirmed independantly
DB - I, too, will cite "thinking about Christian teachings in an adult fashion and finding them to have no basis in reality" as a good reason to deconvert. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things," is how your book puts it.
What specificallly bothers or concerns you about its doctrine.? Why does its teaching conflict with reality?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Coragyps, posted 12-09-2010 11:42 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 12-13-2010 11:17 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 12-13-2010 5:55 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 59 of 566 (596072)
12-12-2010 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Blue Jay
12-08-2010 5:02 PM


"I have never had a 'witness' from the Holy Ghost." If true, then it is supported. Well, I suppose it's possible to be given a 'witness' and not recognize what it was, or to later doubt its authenticity. But, if you've had a witness, and were still not convinced, either God didn't provide a good enough of witness for you---which shouldn't have been a problem for Him if He actually knew you the way the scriptures claim---or the witness wasn't real.
I argue that both of these constitute support for a decision to deconvert.
If you disagree that these are good reasons for abandoning God, I guess I can't demonstrate that you're wrong. But, belief is always personal. I argue that the explanations for why these aren't good reasons are obscure and subjective, and thus, none of my business unless they're my explanations to myself.
This is simply a denominational misunderstanding of how the Holy Spirit operates and what the scriptures teach about his influence in our affairs
Since you cited no passages, Ill wait to see what your understanding is exacally
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Blue Jay, posted 12-08-2010 5:02 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by frako, posted 12-12-2010 7:54 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 306 by Blue Jay, posted 12-20-2010 11:51 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 61 of 566 (596115)
12-13-2010 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by frako
12-12-2010 7:54 PM


If you want a reason to deconvert from your PRIVATE beliefs you will haveto provide your PRIVATE anwsers to why.
I can only suggest you start with anwsers to why you do not believe in Allah
Because the Koran is not like the Bible, it cannot sustain itself by its internal evidences, in the nature of historical and archaeological support and especially in doctrine.
It apprears to be a bunch of random spiritual ideas strung together, with very little unity
The unity of doctrine and theme is one of the Bibles supports as being from God
Example:
- God sometimes anwser prayers, sometimes he does not, and sometimes he makes you wait. Well the milk carton does the same.
- God is invisible and undetectable and can bend the universe to his will, Well the milk carton is visable tough his powers are as invisable as your god and he can bend the universe to his will.
-God loves me. Well the milk carton loves you too and it is sad because you do not believe in him.
And any other reason you have for believing in god apply it to the milk carton with the same logic as you apply it to god.
You might have a point if it were not for design and articulation in design and direct revelation.
Hey other than that you might have a point
You were a bit general in your response as to why I should deconvert, perhaps you could narrow it down a bit. Be a bit more specific
And any other reason you have for believing in god apply it to the milk carton with the same logic as you apply it to god.
As fortune would have it and while I dont worship the milk carton as I would God, I have a very good relationship with the carton/s in my house
There alittle embarrasing to take places, but I stand behind my decision to love them and make them a part of the family
They dont come along willingly like the dogs, you have to drag them places.
I see the looks and laughter from the neighbors, but I stand beside my decision to love them as anyother family member
Im sure there is any number of wacked out talk show host that could help with this problem, I simply dont have the time at present
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by frako, posted 12-12-2010 7:54 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 9:59 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 67 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:32 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-13-2010 11:34 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 72 by frako, posted 12-13-2010 3:58 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 63 of 566 (596117)
12-13-2010 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
12-13-2010 9:59 AM


So looking at the Bible and seeing that it does not have a unity of doctrine and theme would be a sufficient reason to deconvert?
Is this a sickness you fellas have, or is it just a common practice amoung non-believers. Specifics fellas, Specifics.
Where is the lack of harmony and unity in the scriptures?????????? (For Subbie) Im putting a bunch of question marks here, incase I forget later
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 9:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by dwise1, posted 12-13-2010 10:21 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 65 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 10:40 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 73 of 566 (596178)
12-13-2010 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by dwise1
12-13-2010 10:21 AM


Re: Please learn how to read, Dawn
Jar writes
So looking at the Bible and seeing that it does not have a unity of doctrine and theme would be a sufficient reason to deconvert?
Dewise writes:
jar's question was in the conditional mood -- "would" is the indication. He was not making a statement that there is a lack of "unity of doctrine and theme" in the Bible, but rather asking whether your test for rejecting the Koran would also be sufficient test for whether you should also reject the Bible.
So when jar says that it DOES NOT have a unity of doctrine, when looking at it, (the Bible), that does not mean to you that he thinks it does not?
My guess is that he does not think that it does. Dewise, you have learned some reading and writing skills, now learn some debating skills.
Perhaps you could quit trying to impress everyone with your grammatical skills and contribute to the subject by doing some actual debating
You've never been a part of any formal debate have you, Dewise?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 78 of 566 (596201)
12-13-2010 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
12-13-2010 10:40 AM


If, for example, I look at the Bible and see that it is just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures and that there is no "unity of doctrine and theme", would that be sufficient reason for me to throw the beliefs you try to market away?
You would be wrong and the answer is, No
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 10:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 79 of 566 (596203)
12-13-2010 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
12-13-2010 11:17 AM


The OP doesn't say anything about convincing you. I don't think anybody here would try to convince you that water is wet. What people are telling you in this thread is what convinced them.
Then provide a valid reason in argument and statement form as to why I should deconvert
Dawn Bertot you should deconvert because..............., without just complaining about this or that
You can feel free to try to convince me that a children's story is true.
That you responsibility in this thread
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 12-13-2010 11:17 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 12-13-2010 10:36 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 81 of 566 (596206)
12-13-2010 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 11:32 AM


Re: scriptural unity
from what i understand, and i've only begun reading the quran, there's little question that it was written by a single person. this alone, if true, would grant it far more unity in thought and message than the bible, which had approximately 100 authors, living over the course of close to a 1000 years.
Not if inspiration is involved and that is the point of the Koran, it is just the Old Test copied with some additions and without the Historical support, archaeological backing and Prophecy
understand scriptural unity is probably a sticking point for you, but the idea that someone can actually read and understand the bible and come away with such an idea is just sort of silly.
This is wrong concerning unity, simply due to the theme of the Messiah alone
surely you've noticed there is a new testament and old testament, and they are decidedly different in tone? surely you've noticed that paul advises against covenants that were previously mandatory? let's set contradictions and such aside for now -- surely you noticed that the theology changed at some point, right
Because he was following the words of Christ that "it was finished" and all was fulfulled
Read Galatians "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances, that which was against us and contrary to us, nailing it to the cross
There is amazing unity and purpose in theme. Only someone not paying any attention at all, or trying deliberately to avoid it, would miss it
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:32 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 7:57 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 82 of 566 (596208)
12-13-2010 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
12-13-2010 11:34 AM


Well of course it doesn't. The Koran's got all this crazy stuff in it about fictional characters like Adam and Eve, their supposed children Cain and Abel, some guy called Noah who survived some sort of mythical flood, an imaginary wizard called Moses who parted the Red Sea (as if!), some chap called David who allegedly killed someone called Goliath, some bloke called Jonah who's supposed to have lived inside a whale, and some chappie called Jesus who healed the blind and the leprous and raised the dead.
Obviously there's no historical or archaeological support for any of this.
Now, you were saying how the Koran was different from the Bible? Pray continue with your most interesting narrative.
Yes, because it is a copy and reprint, with a few alterations to the facts of the Bible. The Koran has no theme of purpose, , except that which is borrowed from the Old Testament, its random spiritual concepts strung together, with no ultimate purpose, as that in Genesis, where it states
"Through thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" Fulfilled in Christ
This is simply one of many themes and ultimate purposes that the Koran cannot boast, especially if it was written by one person
Have you ever read the Bible?
Sheesh.
I notice this comment with no example or comment to follow. Did you have one
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-13-2010 11:34 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by frako, posted 12-13-2010 7:58 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 86 of 566 (596213)
12-13-2010 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by frako
12-13-2010 3:58 PM


GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
Not the light of the earths sun on the first day
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
A careful reading of the chapters makes it clear the writer is not trying to give a detailed in exact order description of what God did at every moment
He speaks of different things and rearranges throughout the chapters. Its meant to be discription of Gods creative power, not a map to be scrutinized for contradictions
No mention is made of how God created is made either.
Or who the 'Us" is either. Its simply not necessary.
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 91 of 566 (596223)
12-13-2010 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 7:57 PM


Re: scriptural unity
that's still nonsense. a good portion of the bible is simply not messianic, and a fair portion of the bits that are have nothing to do with the messiah you're likely thinking of. for instance, there was the messiah who lead the israelites into the promised land. the messiah who unified the tribes and ruled as the first king. the messiah who led the people back from exile...
A good portion of the Bible is Messianic, which demonstrates unity of purpose
there was the messiah who lead the israelites into the promised land. the messiah who unified the tribes and ruled as the first king. the messiah who led the people back from exile...
None of these were of course the Messiah mentioned in Genesis 3:15 or the one in Isa 51, that would be called, mighty God, eternal father and Prince of Peace, fulfilled clearly in Christ in the New Law, correct?
makes me wonder. you've acknowledged that there was a major shift in theology, but then go on to claim unity in the very next sentence? peculiar.
no, only those not paying attention at all, or deliberately trying to obscure the text, can miss the fact the fact there really isn't much in the way of scriptural unity.
but lets test that, shall we? i think this will be fun. i'll post two random verses, and you explain the unity.
You missed the part where I responded by pointing out that Paul and Christ acknowledge that the Old Law was only for a time, until the fulfillment of all things
Why do you assume a change in a way of doing something does not constitute a continuity of theology?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 7:57 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 9:25 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 129 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2010 5:07 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 92 of 566 (596225)
12-13-2010 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taq
12-13-2010 5:55 PM


To make a very large generalization, for most atheists with a religious background a disbelief precedes the deconversion. The deconversion is the unavoidable consequence of not believing what you have studied and been taught over the years.
You clearly did not have an adequate education in the scriptures. Since you did not provide an example, I must conclude you have none
It's not a matter of doctrine bothering us. To use an analogy, does it bother you that Santa Claus is said to use flying reindeer? I would not describe that as bothersome, just something that I don't believe in.
If you could show us compelling evidence then we would believe.
Your analogy is quite inaccurate and its attempts to equate Christianity w/Santa are easily deniable and silly
Compelling evidence is different for some than it is for others. Aside from its historicity and archaeological content, its most compelling evidence is its unity of purpose and theme, kept consistent throughout the ages. Its Prophecy concerning the Messiah and many other things point to inspiration
If it does not for you , then so be it. I need a valid reason to reject such evidence, especially where inspiration, intervention, divine guidance and the miraculous were and are involved

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 12-13-2010 5:55 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by bluescat48, posted 12-13-2010 11:33 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 96 of 566 (596237)
12-13-2010 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
12-13-2010 9:25 PM


Re: scriptural unity
So you claim, but which would still not indicate 'unity of purpose'. In addition you have offered no evidence that much of the Bible is messianic or that Jesus is in anyway related to any of the messianic passages.
When one understands the ultimate purpose of God in scripture, the unifiying of himself and man after the fall, one easily understands the messianic prophecies
The proof is in the pudding itself. Your approval is not required. When all the themes in scripture are considered, the one that stands out is the reunification of man to God. That is its theme and purpose
certainly anyone can stand back and continue to say, I just dont see it, deliberately or even by just covering thier minds eye. the theme is to easy to miss or ignore
If you think you can support those assertions there is a thread looking for Prophecy supposedly fulfilled by Jesus. Feel free to try to support your assertion there.
I dont need to do anything, the scriptures will do it for you, just read it, with the clear theme in mind
Dawn Bertot
AbE:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 9:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 131 by arachnophilia, posted 12-14-2010 5:13 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
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