Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?

Jon writes:The problem with using the same method on animals is, as I've already said: animals aren't humans.

Jon writes:It is easier for us to conjecture on possible reasons for burying dead folk with jewelry because those practices are like our own, and those people are like ourselves. But to watch a bunch of monkeys jump up and down or observe an elephant seeming sad about another dead elephant and conclude that these are evidence of religious behavior is just stupid and illogical.

Jon writes:We're doing a good job of personifying our subjects, but we certainly aren't answering any questions regarding why they actually behave the way they do.

Jon writes:To guess at the reasons for someone within our own species doing something based on why we do it is enough of a stretch the way it is. Jumping outside of our species and trying to draw conclusions in the same fashion is an even bigger stretch, absolute malarkey, in fact.

Jon writes:And, of course, even if we could show that the monkeys danced to coax out the rain, it still wouldn't tell us whether they believed in the 'supernatural'. They may believe what they do to be very much a part of nature. We may call it 'supernatural', but that doesn't mean they call it the same.

Jon writes:It's all so relative; I don't see how we could ever get an answer given only what we know now.

It was you that raised inability to understand and "mysterious miracle workers" as equating to supernatural belief.

And what makes you think that your cat believes that you are [a mysterious miracle worker]?

And as I have said humans are animals. Hence some comparison is valid even if not definitive in any sense.

Why do you think other animals are so psychologically different from ourselves?

I am not asking why. I am seeking comparable behaviour.

The same could be said of any primitive human civiisation that we find archaeological evidence for could it not? Yet we do conclude that ancient cultures are theistic on less direct evidence than is being talked about here.

I am asking for speculative but evidence based conjecture.

Jon writes:Is there any reason to believe they are the same?

Evolutionary origins?

Jon writes:I think I'm biased.

Now about Message 70 or Message 7Does anyone have anything constructive to say about the topic?

Science has not yet determined how thought processes occur to store memory in the brain let alone determine whether animals believe in supernatural entities.This does remind me of a event that took place when I rented an apartment that was previously vacant for a few years. I felt at times there was a ghost and other friends felt it too when they came over. I then got a cat and one night she starting to hiss and growl at the closet for no reason that I could see. After that I never felt that ghost energy again.You can call this whatever you want but to this day I wonder what that was really all about that took place.

How different are we fundamentally in psychological terms from those species we share so much else with?

Jon writes:We simply do not know. How can we?

Link writes:Sebestyen-Forrester observed that a right-handed bias for actions that also involved head and mouth movements among gorillas. As you may know, the right side of the body is controlled by the left hemisphere of the brain, which is also the location for language development. Sebestyen-Forrester’s hypothesis is that this handedness bias offers major clues as to how language developed in humans. Gorillas deploy a wide range of non-verbal communicative behaviors, such as facial expression, eye gazes and manual gestures, and tactile signals (like grooming and huddling which are used for social cohesion). In my own experiences, I quickly came to learn what a lip-smack, pursed lip, chestslap, purr, etc. meant.

Jon writes:I once saw my cat hand-shake thin air. I think she made a deal with Satan, and her behavior at times certainly suggests as much.

CS writes:Its hard to say one way or the other...

CS writes:I don't know how alike our psychologies are well enough to say that a chimp thinking his dance can affect the weather is a supernatural belief.

Link writes: Lanting and Pruetz observed the primates fashioning spears from tree limbs to capture bush babies, small mammals that hide deep inside hollow trees.No one has ever seen that before in any other chimps elsewhere, Lanting says.The Fongoli chimps often displayed behaviors akin to those of early humans.There is very little fundamental difference in my opinion between how these chimps live and how our very earliest ancestors lived, Lanting says. It’s just like looking at human beings. I regard these chimpanzees as very shy, private people.Like humans, the male chimps also seem to have a bit of a rhythmic bent; Lanting observed them drumming on hollow baobab trees as a way of impressing potential mates and intimidating rivals.It took several months for the Fongoli chimps to begin accepting Pruetz and Lanting, who says they wore the same clothes every day so that the animals could become accustomed to their presence.On days that the chimps let their guard down, Lanting says, he and Pruetz were able to observe behaviors that are all confirmation to the fact that the boundaries between humans and chimps are really quite fuzzy.

CS writes:Some of the behaviors you brought up do look similiar to behaviors of humans with supernatural beliefs, but then we do have a tendency to anthropomorphize when looking at behaviors that are already somewhat human-like, so I don't think we can say either way if they're having supernatural beliefs or not.

CS writes:And the title sucks... Even if we do determine that these animals are showing supernatural beliefs (i.e. that a certain dance affects the weather), that isn't really telling us anything about whether or not they believe in supernatural beings.