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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
subbie
Member (Idle past 1367 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 16 of 566 (595445)
12-08-2010 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


Sorry, I'm much more interested in an examination of your misuse of the English language, and the many egregious errors you make in every post.
How about a discussion examining (some of) the alledged reasons for deconversion
Alleged, not "alledged."
Put a period at the end of sentences, or, if the sentence happens to be a question, a question mark.
An exploration into the individual justifications concerning these reasons.
Not a sentence, or as my English teachers used to put on my papers to save time, "NAS."
Against a Biblical perspective
NAS
This may not fly with Percy, I know not
Punctuation.
Well, let's review. In four sentences you made five errors. Not a very good average, eh Abbot?
Oh, and just to stay on topic, I do not believe in any deities because there's no evidence of any, just as there's no evidence that you can write coherently.
I can't wait for your next post in this thread.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2810 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(2)
Message 17 of 566 (595456)
12-08-2010 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


Hi, Dawn.
What would count as a "valid" reason?
For instance, my religious leaders generally disapprove of leaving church because of a personal issue with some prominent member of the local congregation. I would argue that this is an invalid reason, because it's unrelated to religion, and decisions about religion should based on reasons related to religion.
A valid reason would be something like, "I no longer believe what they teach"; or "I have never had a 'witness' from the Holy Ghost"; or something like that. These reasons are all valid, because they are direct counterpoints to the typical religious reasons why one would remain affiliated with a religion.
What about "supportable"? Can we support the valid reasons I cited above?
"I no longer believe what they teach." Well, if I genuinely no longer believe what they teach, then I think this reason is supported. Of course, no one else will ever really know whether you're being honest about your belief, but that's not a valid reason to hold you up, so it shouldn't come in to this discussion.
"I have never had a 'witness' from the Holy Ghost." If true, then it is supported. Well, I suppose it's possible to be given a 'witness' and not recognize what it was, or to later doubt its authenticity. But, if you've had a witness, and were still not convinced, either God didn't provide a good enough of witness for you---which shouldn't have been a problem for Him if He actually knew you the way the scriptures claim---or the witness wasn't real.
I argue that both of these constitute support for a decision to deconvert.
If you disagree that these are good reasons for abandoning God, I guess I can't demonstrate that you're wrong. But, belief is always personal. I argue that the explanations for why these aren't good reasons are obscure and subjective, and thus, none of my business unless they're my explanations to myself.
Edited by Bluejay, : space between "an" and "invalid"

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4828 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


(1)
Message 18 of 566 (595459)
12-08-2010 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


Dibbs
I call dibbs on arguments of authority. If you ever bother with your own topic, DB, you'll have to get my approval for all arguments of the form "Is not!"

By the authority invested in me under the dibbs rule, use of the argument "Becaaaa*use!" by apostates shall herein be ruled valid and supportable.
*Shakespeare multiple vowel rule.

Tofu cars taste even better than regular cars World's first green truth.

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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


Message 19 of 566 (595468)
12-08-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by dwise1
12-08-2010 4:02 PM


Dwise1 writes:
The plain fact is that except for that very stern don't do it!, the Bible really doesn't have anything to say about deconversion.
There is that story of the new convert who was ready to join up with the Apostles & Jesus, but first wanted to take some time to bury his father. Jesus tells him to come along right now, and forget about his dad, saying something to the effect of "Let the dead bury the dead." This shows up at the end of the Gregory Peck masterpiece "To Kill A Mockingbird" when the sheriff utters that exact line. It also shows up in Dylan's "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue" with the last verse line "Forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you." In context with the other famous Jesus line about returning with a Sword, we find that Jesus wasn't much the peace hippy dude as we might have liked. He not all that he was cracked up to be. Had a lot of cool things to say, but in the end comes off as a pretty deluded insane wacko.
Dawn, I suspect that you imagine that deconversion always results in atheism. I submit that it does not always, but rather it often results in another more functional (or at least less dysfunctional) form of the same religion.
You can deconvert from Atheism, too. For example, RAZD has done that. I might suspect, that in his case, it was some kind of a Eureka!-like synthesis of the marvelousness of the entire universe, not a deluded Intelligent Design Institute view, but an even simpler snap of the fingers. However, RAZD has abundantly made it clear that it is a private matter and not up for display here. So we can only speculate.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 20 of 566 (595484)
12-08-2010 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
12-08-2010 10:20 AM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
jar writes:
If the god being marketed seems stupid, cruel, or just plain silly then of course that god should b thrown away.
why?
lots of people are stupid, cruel, and silly, yet they still exist. an evil or inept god is still a god, right?

אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4623 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 21 of 566 (595486)
12-08-2010 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


My reason.
I have two reasons.
There is no compelling evidence that the God of the Bible exists.
If the God of the Bible does exist, He's evil.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 22 of 566 (595487)
12-08-2010 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


another scriptural perspective
hi again Dawn,
Dawn Bertot writes:
Against a Biblical perspective
as i mentioned in the previous thread, there are actually quite a few perspective on the bible, and a good solid academic understanding of the actual contents of the text can frequently lead to atheism. many of the "recovering christians" i have know cited the bible among their reasons.
but, i'd like to shift this away from the bible you know and love, and discuss a book you likely know very little about.
quote:
Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how a merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Moroni 10:3-5
this is the famous "test" from the book of mormon. it provides a pretty clear scriptural reason for de-conversion, and encourages a kind of (perhaps false) skepticism about the text. now, i really like talking to the LDS missionaries, and find the LDS people perhaps some of the kindest, most caring followers-of-christ i have ever known. but they always seem to disappear when i quote this verse to them, and tell them that their book has failed the test for me.
now, i can get into a lot of the issues that i find suspect about the book of mormon -- but i'd really be more interested to know why you don't accept the other testament of jesus christ.

אָרַח

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 23 of 566 (595488)
12-08-2010 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by arachnophilia
12-08-2010 8:35 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
Because I am not stupid, cruel or just plain silly.
A stupid, cruel or just plain silly god may still be a god but not something worth worshiping. Just throw the sucker away.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 566 (595493)
12-08-2010 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
12-08-2010 9:16 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
jar writes:
Because I am not stupid, cruel or just plain silly.
A stupid, cruel or just plain silly god may still be a god but not something worth worshiping. Just throw the sucker away.
even if the cruel god will punish you for not worshiping him or her?

אָרַח

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 25 of 566 (595494)
12-08-2010 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by arachnophilia
12-08-2010 9:54 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
Of course.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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ringo
Member (Idle past 524 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 26 of 566 (595501)
12-08-2010 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by arachnophilia
12-08-2010 9:54 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
arachnophilia writes:
even if the cruel god will punish you for not worshiping him or her?
Sounds like a good reason to shoot back.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 566 (595503)
12-08-2010 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
12-08-2010 10:24 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
ringo writes:
Sounds like a good reason to shoot back.
that would be a losing battle, almost by definition.
i do, however, appreciate the old testament idea of struggling with god. i think it's a much more realistic and mature religious philosophy.

אָרַח

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onifre
Member (Idle past 3063 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 28 of 566 (595514)
12-09-2010 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by arachnophilia
12-08-2010 8:35 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
lots of people are stupid, cruel, and silly, yet they still exist. an evil or inept god is still a god, right?
Wouldn't the confirmed existence of one god be ample proof to suggest that there can be many gods? And if so, why settle for the cruel, stupid and silly one? Look at what happened to the US during the Bush admin.
I think it would be best not to settle. If you meet the asshole god, maybe try finding the cool god and ignore the other one.
- Oni

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frako
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 29 of 566 (595520)
12-09-2010 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
12-08-2010 11:15 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
that would be a losing battle, almost by definition.
i do, however, appreciate the old testament idea of struggling with god. i think it's a much more realistic and mature religious philosophy.
Nah If he is as stupid as his creation looks like. I use the same method like someone used in a legend against a dragon he asked him if he is all that powerful then he should eat himself.
When he tries to give you a trial you swipe a sword from an angel and stab him in the forehead.
When he sends me to hell i challenge Satan for the ruler ship of hell win and then lead an all out attack on heaven. (it is better to rule in hell then to serve in heaven) lol
Lol tough there is no need to kill god like there is no need to kill the pink unicorn they both do not exists.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3569 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 30 of 566 (595526)
12-09-2010 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


No Purpose
quote:
Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
People tend to leave a club when it no longer serves a purpose in their lives.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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