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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 20 of 566 (595484)
12-08-2010 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
12-08-2010 10:20 AM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
jar writes:
If the god being marketed seems stupid, cruel, or just plain silly then of course that god should b thrown away.
why?
lots of people are stupid, cruel, and silly, yet they still exist. an evil or inept god is still a god, right?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 12-08-2010 10:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 12-08-2010 9:16 PM arachnophilia has replied
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 22 of 566 (595487)
12-08-2010 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


another scriptural perspective
hi again Dawn,
Dawn Bertot writes:
Against a Biblical perspective
as i mentioned in the previous thread, there are actually quite a few perspective on the bible, and a good solid academic understanding of the actual contents of the text can frequently lead to atheism. many of the "recovering christians" i have know cited the bible among their reasons.
but, i'd like to shift this away from the bible you know and love, and discuss a book you likely know very little about.
quote:
Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how a merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Moroni 10:3-5
this is the famous "test" from the book of mormon. it provides a pretty clear scriptural reason for de-conversion, and encourages a kind of (perhaps false) skepticism about the text. now, i really like talking to the LDS missionaries, and find the LDS people perhaps some of the kindest, most caring followers-of-christ i have ever known. but they always seem to disappear when i quote this verse to them, and tell them that their book has failed the test for me.
now, i can get into a lot of the issues that i find suspect about the book of mormon -- but i'd really be more interested to know why you don't accept the other testament of jesus christ.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 38 by Blue Jay, posted 12-09-2010 10:41 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 566 (595493)
12-08-2010 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
12-08-2010 9:16 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
jar writes:
Because I am not stupid, cruel or just plain silly.
A stupid, cruel or just plain silly god may still be a god but not something worth worshiping. Just throw the sucker away.
even if the cruel god will punish you for not worshiping him or her?

אָרַח

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 Message 26 by ringo, posted 12-08-2010 10:24 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 566 (595503)
12-08-2010 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
12-08-2010 10:24 PM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
ringo writes:
Sounds like a good reason to shoot back.
that would be a losing battle, almost by definition.
i do, however, appreciate the old testament idea of struggling with god. i think it's a much more realistic and mature religious philosophy.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 36 of 566 (595555)
12-09-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by onifre
12-09-2010 1:47 AM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
onifire writes:
Wouldn't the confirmed existence of one god be ample proof to suggest that there can be many gods?
i don't see why that would necessarily follow. yes, if would open the possibility (since a deity can exist, two deities wouldn't be completely unreasonable). but i don't know that one would suggest others.
If you meet the asshole god, maybe try finding the cool god and ignore the other one.
there's a story, probably invented, about a group of missionaries who went and told some african tribesmen about jesus, and god, and the gospels, and in the process, converted the tribesmen to satan worship. their logic was that god will forgive you, but the devil won't.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 566 (595556)
12-09-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by frako
12-09-2010 4:06 AM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
frako writes:
Nah If he is as stupid as his creation looks like. I use the same method like someone used in a legend against a dragon he asked him if he is all that powerful then he should eat himself.
When he tries to give you a trial you swipe a sword from an angel and stab him in the forehead.
When he sends me to hell i challenge Satan for the ruler ship of hell win and then lead an all out attack on heaven. (it is better to rule in hell then to serve in heaven) lol
yeah, so, good luck with that one.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 42 of 566 (595573)
12-09-2010 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Blue Jay
12-09-2010 10:41 AM


Re: another scriptural perspective
Bluejay writes:
As far as tests go, it's not too bad for a religious test; and Mormons stand behind it vigorously. Unfortunately, it's not actually as reliable as we like to think it is. I've never been very clear on what the sensation of "the truth being manifested by the power of the Holy Ghost" is supposed to be like, but the people around me didn't seem to have problems with it.
One of the major problems I had was that, while the Holy Ghost is supposed to manifest truth, I seem fully capable of experiencing the same kinds of sensations when watching fictional "tearjerker" movies. The responses I get when I discuss this with my Mormon family and friends are things like (1) "The Spirit is confirming a principle to you"; or (2) "Are you sure it's the Spirit, and not just your personal emotions?"
I generally just tell my Mormon friends that my spiritual sense doesn't work. Some of my friends tell me that, for those of us with broken spiritual senses, the Lord provides ways to reason out the truth, but I've so far failed at that too (I kind of avoid talking about this part with them, though).
well, i consider the lack of confirmation (a non-working spiritual sense) a pretty clear failure of the test. the question should be, what's a success supposed to be like, exactly? and, more interestingly. does this (like several other passages in the old testament) fundamentally violate deuteronomy 6:16, "you shall not tempt yahweh, your god."
i'm going to attempt to hold my tongue on my actual argument until i hear why Dawn does or does not believe the other testament of jesus christ.
but you may be interested to know that I grew up a Mormon. I'm actually still a Mormon as far as decorum goes, but I consider myself agnostic philosophically.
out of morbid curiosity, were you slightly mormon, or very mormon? i have some experience with the kinds of mormons that go to church every sunday, are generally good people, and don't let it completely occupy their lives. the only exposure i've had to the more fervent, actually from utah type of mormon has been through missionaries.
i enjoy inviting them in when they come around on saturdays, and having interesting discussions on the scriptures. JW's too.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Blue Jay, posted 12-09-2010 10:41 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Blue Jay, posted 12-09-2010 2:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 49 of 566 (595660)
12-09-2010 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Blue Jay
12-09-2010 2:06 PM


Re: another scriptural perspective
Bluejay writes:
Very Mormon. I'm not from Utah, but I'm a fourth- or fifth-generation Mormon, no matter which line you trace my ancestry through. We went to church every Sunday, read from the Book of Mormon every night, and were always supposed to be doing everything in our power to live up to the standards of the Church.
I don't have the stamina for it anymore, but my parents still do.
interesting. did you share a deconversion story over in the other thread? i might have to go look for it... in any case, yeah. i find certain varieties of certain religions quite oppressive. they can really eat up a lot of your time and energy, just in feeling guilty for not being perfect. it's really quite a drain, and strikes me as very cult-ish. this is not every mormon church, or every christian church, of course. but the mormon missionaries that come are girls shipped out from utah. they wear full length skirts, and aren't really allowed to do anything. they send them to florida, and they aren't even allowed to go to the beach, lest they be ogled. they can't enter a house unless a woman is also there. etc.
i do not think that religion was meant to be a burden; certainly not christian religions.
I still don't drink alcohol or coffee or tea, because I'm completely uninterested in starting now.
not big on alcohol myself, but i can't go more than a few days without caffeine before massive withdrawal migraines set in.
Naturally, I counter with a "Lord's timeframe" argument and you're supposed to melt away under my masterful logic. And then, if you question the validity of the test or the falsifiability of God, I'm supposed to act like I don't know what falsifiability means and/or just feel sorrow for the fact that your skepticism is preventing you from enjoying the Celestial Kingdom.
well, i've heard the second part before, yes, but i'm not sure about the first one. usually they jump right to "sorrow for skepticism" as by that point i've already laid out enough textual issues that would make any sane person go, "okay, this book is completely fictional." there's no converting the missionaries, but it sure is fun to try.
I then thank you for your time and go knock on the next door. Oh, but not before telling you with lots of conviction that I know the Book of Mormon to be true, because testimonies can be a very powerful way to bring the Spirit.
yes, well, like i said, it's at this point they generally move on and i don't hear from them again. i know this, so i only bring out when i actually want them to go away. i kind of keep it secret, and we discuss other matters until that point.
When I was a missionary, we had to role-play scenarios like this all the time. But, being able to "bring the Spirit" into a fictional role-play made it hard for me to believe it was genuine.
see, i have been an exceptionally religious person myself. i know those seeds of doubt are there, and there are things that people find just downright silly about their religions, and this whole "we know it to be true" inerrancy nonsense is really just overcompensation.
just once i'd like to get the missionaries (of any variety) up to a level where we can actually discuss my doubts without them simply waving them off with platitudes and standardized dogma.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Blue Jay, posted 12-09-2010 2:06 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 50 of 566 (595661)
12-09-2010 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Stile
12-09-2010 2:42 PM


Re: another scriptural perspective
Stile writes:
Bluejay writes:
When I was a missionary, we had to role-play scenarios like this all the time.
Seriously? How interesting. ...and a bit sad.
oh, yes. my ex-girlfriend was part of a trial family. they would play the hopeful converts, to the missionaries in training. of course, it never really goes down like they role-play, so when i was there a number of years ago, i decided i would give them something they wouldn't expect.
of course, that was my initial exposure to LDS, so i wasn't quite as critical of the text at that point.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(1)
Message 67 of 566 (596126)
12-13-2010 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 9:06 AM


scriptural unity
hi Dawn,
Because the Koran is not like the Bible, it cannot sustain itself by its internal evidences,
from what i understand, and i've only begun reading the quran, there's little question that it was written by a single person. this alone, if true, would grant it far more unity in thought and message than the bible, which had approximately 100 authors, living over the course of close to a 1000 years.
i understand scriptural unity is probably a sticking point for you, but the idea that someone can actually read and understand the bible and come away with such an idea is just sort of silly. surely you've noticed there is a new testament and old testament, and they are decidedly different in tone? surely you've noticed that paul advises against covenants that were previously mandatory? let's set contradictions and such aside for now -- surely you noticed that the theology changed at some point, right?
The unity of doctrine and theme is one of the Bibles supports as being from God
as i mentioned earlier, the surest path to atheism is in truly studying the bible. and notions like this are exactly the reason why. once you actually commit to studying it, in depth, openly and honestly, you will find that this unity of doctrine and theme stuff is nonsense. for a lot of believers, this is absolutely faith-shattering.
for me, i think the collection of different human voices, different messages and meanings, is the very thing that makes the bible beautiful, and that trying to fit it all through this unity filter gets rid of the truly interesting parts. it's a bit like a gourmet seven course meal -- you want to enjoy the distinct flavours of each part of the meal. you wouldn't want to throw it all in a blender and hit "puree" so that you can drink it through a straw.
when i was younger, that's part of why i found the bible daunting and uninteresting. 1500 pages of sameness? i'll pass. surely god could get his message out in a shorter and more clear way. turns out that i was just rejecting the slop that this unity doctrine had turned it into.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:06 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 7:26 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 69 of 566 (596128)
12-13-2010 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
12-13-2010 11:17 AM


ringo writes:
You can feel free to try to convince me that a children's story is true.
i think that's a little harsh. surely, the contents of the bible weren't entirely meant for children. i mean, there's rape and genocide, incest, all kinds of things you shouldn't expose children to.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 76 of 566 (596197)
12-13-2010 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by bluescat48
12-13-2010 1:29 PM


bluescat48 writes:
In reality, those things shouldn't be exposed to adults. There is more than enough genocide, rape , incest and other evils in reality. We don't need reinforcement in Biblical stories, through which some have attempted to justify that evil.
also being fair, "attempted to justify" is probably not accurate either. while some of the evils are examples of evils, sure, others, like genocide, are specifically advocated. the bible does portray genocide as justifiable, and even commands the ancient israelites to commit it against certain enemies.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 77 of 566 (596198)
12-13-2010 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by frako
12-13-2010 3:58 PM


frako writes:
And is totaly consistent there are no things in it that contradict itself like:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
your other examples aside, i do not think this one is a contradiction. we are dealing with a single author, in this case, and part of the same source text. the author simply believed that the sun was not the source of light, at least for the first three days.
stupid, but not contradictory.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 84 of 566 (596211)
12-13-2010 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 7:26 PM


Re: scriptural unity
Not if inspiration is involved and that is the point of the Koran, it is just the Old Test copied with some additions and without the Historical support, archaeological backing and Prophecy
okay, granted, i'm only a few pages in, but what i've read so far is most certainly not "just the Old Test[ament] copied with some additions". rather, it is some extended commentary, much more akin to the epistles of paul.
however, it's interesting to see you state that the old testament lacks historical support, archaeological backing, and prophecy. perhaps you should phrase your sentences more carefully, as this is almost certainly not what you meant. however, as many people have pointed out, history and archaeology do not favourably back the bible.
This is wrong concerning unity, simply due to the theme of the Messiah alone
that's still nonsense. a good portion of the bible is simply not messianic, and a fair portion of the bits that are have nothing to do with the messiah you're likely thinking of. for instance, there was the messiah who lead the israelites into the promised land. the messiah who unified the tribes and ruled as the first king. the messiah who led the people back from exile...
Because he was following the words of Christ that "it was finished" and all was fulfulled
Read Galatians "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances, that which was against us and contrary to us, nailing it to the cross
err, yes. i think you fill find that i was specifically referring to galations. but how you can go from this, to this:
There is amazing unity and purpose in theme. Only someone not paying any attention at all, or trying deliberately to avoid it, would miss it
makes me wonder. you've acknowledged that there was a major shift in theology, but then go on to claim unity in the very next sentence? peculiar.
no, only those not paying attention at all, or deliberately trying to obscure the text, can miss the fact the fact there really isn't much in the way of scriptural unity.
but lets test that, shall we? i think this will be fun. i'll post two random verses, and you explain the unity.
quote:
Thy two breasts are like two fawns that are twins of a gazelle.
quote:
And Hadad died.
unity. go.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 7:26 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

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 Message 91 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:12 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1451 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 87 of 566 (596214)
12-13-2010 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by frako
12-13-2010 7:54 PM


frako writes:
One would think that god the one who inspired breathed on....the bibles writers would tell the inspired breathed on or whatever writer this.
It is just one of the pieces that point to the bibles human origins and pulls it away from divine origins. Or in other words it shows that the bible was written by bronze age men that had bronze age understanding of the world.
i was never debating that point.
wouldn't it be cool if the bible explained string theory? stuff that no human being at the time could possibly understand? surely, if it were literally dictated by god, such things would be routine. yet, it starts out with stuff like genesis 1, which gets so many things factually wrong...

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