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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
Panda
Member (Idle past 3798 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 31 of 566 (595527)
12-09-2010 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by purpledawn
12-09-2010 6:36 AM


Re: No Purpose
purpledawn writes:
People tend to leave a club when it no longer serves a purpose in their lives.
In my experience, people tend to leave a club due to "inconceivable flatulence" and "inappropriate use of the club mascot".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2010 6:36 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2010 9:52 AM Panda has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3542 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 566 (595543)
12-09-2010 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Panda
12-09-2010 6:56 AM


Re: No Purpose
Your point is what?
You don't feel that a valid reason for deconversion is that the religion no longer serves a purpose for the individual or did you just feel the need to trivialize my comment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Panda, posted 12-09-2010 6:56 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Panda, posted 12-09-2010 10:20 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 12-09-2010 10:20 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5974
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 33 of 566 (595547)
12-09-2010 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by onifre
12-09-2010 1:47 AM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
I think it would be best not to settle. If you meet the asshole god, maybe try finding the cool god and ignore the other one.
Joke I heard years ago:
While hiking in the mountains, a man falls off the trail, grabs a branch to stop himself, and finds himself hanging over an enormous drop with no escape in sight. He prays for deliverance from his plight and a voice from Heaven tells him, "Have faith and let go." He ponders this for a moment and shouts back, "Anybody else up there? I'd like a second opinion!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by onifre, posted 12-09-2010 1:47 AM onifre has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3798 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 34 of 566 (595551)
12-09-2010 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
12-09-2010 9:52 AM


Re: No Purpose
purpledawn writes:
You don't feel that a valid reason for deconversion is that the religion no longer serves a purpose for the individual or did you just feel the need to trivialize my comment?
You described religion as "a club".
That trivialises religion.
My reply was in a similar vein.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2010 9:52 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2010 12:57 PM Panda has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5974
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 35 of 566 (595552)
12-09-2010 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
12-09-2010 9:52 AM


Re: No Purpose
My question is what kind of "club" are you two talking about? Looks like this might be an object lesson in what I was trying to tell Dawn, that confusion reigns when the different sides use different definitions for the same words.
As for me, taking it in Panda's sense (I think), I have very little use for clubs because the music is both loud and lousy and they have forgotten the wisdom that it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. Besides, hardly anybody there knows how to dance (by which I mean partner dance).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2010 9:52 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Panda, posted 12-09-2010 10:46 AM dwise1 has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1429 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 36 of 566 (595555)
12-09-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by onifre
12-09-2010 1:47 AM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
onifire writes:
Wouldn't the confirmed existence of one god be ample proof to suggest that there can be many gods?
i don't see why that would necessarily follow. yes, if would open the possibility (since a deity can exist, two deities wouldn't be completely unreasonable). but i don't know that one would suggest others.
If you meet the asshole god, maybe try finding the cool god and ignore the other one.
there's a story, probably invented, about a group of missionaries who went and told some african tribesmen about jesus, and god, and the gospels, and in the process, converted the tribesmen to satan worship. their logic was that god will forgive you, but the devil won't.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by onifre, posted 12-09-2010 1:47 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by onifre, posted 12-09-2010 1:30 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1429 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 566 (595556)
12-09-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by frako
12-09-2010 4:06 AM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
frako writes:
Nah If he is as stupid as his creation looks like. I use the same method like someone used in a legend against a dragon he asked him if he is all that powerful then he should eat himself.
When he tries to give you a trial you swipe a sword from an angel and stab him in the forehead.
When he sends me to hell i challenge Satan for the ruler ship of hell win and then lead an all out attack on heaven. (it is better to rule in hell then to serve in heaven) lol
yeah, so, good luck with that one.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by frako, posted 12-09-2010 4:06 AM frako has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 38 of 566 (595559)
12-09-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by arachnophilia
12-08-2010 9:04 PM


Re: another scriptural perspective
Hi, arachnophilia.
You and I haven't associated much on this forum, but you may be interested to know that I grew up a Mormon. I'm actually still a Mormon as far as decorum goes, but I consider myself agnostic philosophically.
Incidentally, I also like spiders (I'm an arachnologist).
arachnophilia writes:
but [the mormons] always seem to disappear when i quote this verse to them, and tell them that their book has failed the test for me.
As far as tests go, it's not too bad for a religious test; and Mormons stand behind it vigorously. Unfortunately, it's not actually as reliable as we like to think it is. I've never been very clear on what the sensation of "the truth being manifested by the power of the Holy Ghost" is supposed to be like, but the people around me didn't seem to have problems with it.
One of the major problems I had was that, while the Holy Ghost is supposed to manifest truth, I seem fully capable of experiencing the same kinds of sensations when watching fictional "tearjerker" movies. The responses I get when I discuss this with my Mormon family and friends are things like (1) "The Spirit is confirming a principle to you"; or (2) "Are you sure it's the Spirit, and not just your personal emotions?"
I generally just tell my Mormon friends that my spiritual sense doesn't work. Some of my friends tell me that, for those of us with broken spiritual senses, the Lord provides ways to reason out the truth, but I've so far failed at that too (I kind of avoid talking about this part with them, though).
I've chosen not to officially deconvert (mainly for familial reasons), but I would accept any of these as valid and supportable reasons for someone to deconvert or to not convert in the first place. Just don't tell my mother or my bishop that I said that.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2010 9:04 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 11:21 AM Blue Jay has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3798 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 39 of 566 (595562)
12-09-2010 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by dwise1
12-09-2010 10:20 AM


Re: No Purpose
dwise1 writes:
As for me, taking it in Panda's sense (I think), I have very little use for clubs because the music is both loud and lousy and they have forgotten the wisdom that it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. Besides, hardly anybody there knows how to dance (by which I mean partner dance).
I looked up the definition of club:
quote:
A group of people organized for a common purpose, especially a group that meets regularly: a garden club.
This pretty much matches the definition that I thought PD was using.
In my experience, when someone talks about clubs they tend to be talking about 'night clubs' (as you suggested), small 'hobby' clubs (e.g. book club) or sports clubs.
I would expect the religious people I work with not to be unhappy if I describing their religion a club.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 12-09-2010 10:20 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by dwise1, posted 12-09-2010 11:03 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5974
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 40 of 566 (595566)
12-09-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Panda
12-09-2010 10:46 AM


Re: No Purpose
I forgot about the "hobby club" definition. Actually, I thought that PD was refering to "club" as a weapon. I've certainly seen a number of religionists who use their religion as a weapon, as a club to beat those they don't like. California's Prop Hate, for example.
But your interpretation of what he meant is probably much better than mine. After all, religion can lose its effectiveness as a social club, but never as a weapon.
Edited by dwise1, : second paragraph

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Panda, posted 12-09-2010 10:46 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 12-09-2010 11:18 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34061
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 41 of 566 (595572)
12-09-2010 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by dwise1
12-09-2010 11:03 AM


Re: No Purpose
After all, religion can lose its effectiveness as a social club, but never as a weapon.
Of course it can even lose that function. If you no longer see the weapon as a threat, even that value is lost.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 40 by dwise1, posted 12-09-2010 11:03 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1429 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 42 of 566 (595573)
12-09-2010 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Blue Jay
12-09-2010 10:41 AM


Re: another scriptural perspective
Bluejay writes:
As far as tests go, it's not too bad for a religious test; and Mormons stand behind it vigorously. Unfortunately, it's not actually as reliable as we like to think it is. I've never been very clear on what the sensation of "the truth being manifested by the power of the Holy Ghost" is supposed to be like, but the people around me didn't seem to have problems with it.
One of the major problems I had was that, while the Holy Ghost is supposed to manifest truth, I seem fully capable of experiencing the same kinds of sensations when watching fictional "tearjerker" movies. The responses I get when I discuss this with my Mormon family and friends are things like (1) "The Spirit is confirming a principle to you"; or (2) "Are you sure it's the Spirit, and not just your personal emotions?"
I generally just tell my Mormon friends that my spiritual sense doesn't work. Some of my friends tell me that, for those of us with broken spiritual senses, the Lord provides ways to reason out the truth, but I've so far failed at that too (I kind of avoid talking about this part with them, though).
well, i consider the lack of confirmation (a non-working spiritual sense) a pretty clear failure of the test. the question should be, what's a success supposed to be like, exactly? and, more interestingly. does this (like several other passages in the old testament) fundamentally violate deuteronomy 6:16, "you shall not tempt yahweh, your god."
i'm going to attempt to hold my tongue on my actual argument until i hear why Dawn does or does not believe the other testament of jesus christ.
but you may be interested to know that I grew up a Mormon. I'm actually still a Mormon as far as decorum goes, but I consider myself agnostic philosophically.
out of morbid curiosity, were you slightly mormon, or very mormon? i have some experience with the kinds of mormons that go to church every sunday, are generally good people, and don't let it completely occupy their lives. the only exposure i've had to the more fervent, actually from utah type of mormon has been through missionaries.
i enjoy inviting them in when they come around on saturdays, and having interesting discussions on the scriptures. JW's too.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Blue Jay, posted 12-09-2010 10:41 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Blue Jay, posted 12-09-2010 2:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 820 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 43 of 566 (595579)
12-09-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dawn Bertot
12-08-2010 3:15 AM


DB - I, too, will cite "thinking about Christian teachings in an adult fashion and finding them to have no basis in reality" as a good reason to deconvert. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things," is how your book puts it.
And where are you, by the way? I'd like your take on some of these many answers you have here.
Edited by Coragyps, : fix quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-08-2010 3:15 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3542 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 44 of 566 (595600)
12-09-2010 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Panda
12-09-2010 10:20 AM


Re: No Purpose
quote:
You described religion as "a club".
That trivialises religion.
My reply was in a similar vein.
So instead of addressing the position you decided to make a useless post. It is better to make a clear point instead of assuming everyone sees things the same way you do. My post made a point whether one considers clubs to be trivial or not.
By your definition religion can be considered a club. There are members and there are rules to follow to become a member. Those who don't conform aren't considered part of the club. They have a common purpose.
I guess I don't consider clubs to be trivial. Maybe since your definition mentioned garden club, which is usually associated with women, you consider them to be trivial.
Do you feel that a valid reason for deconversion is that the religion no longer serves a purpose for the individual?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Panda, posted 12-09-2010 10:20 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Panda, posted 12-09-2010 2:04 PM purpledawn has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3036 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 45 of 566 (595612)
12-09-2010 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by arachnophilia
12-09-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Most Gods should be thrown away
i don't see why that would necessarily follow. yes, if would open the possibility (since a deity can exist, two deities wouldn't be completely unreasonable).
As you said, if there is one there can be two. What then would restrict the possibility of more?
That's all I meant.
their logic was that god will forgive you, but the devil won't.
Ha! That's cool, I like their logic.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 10:26 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
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