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Author Topic:   Can a valid, supportable reason be offered for deconversion
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 61 of 566 (596115)
12-13-2010 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by frako
12-12-2010 7:54 PM


If you want a reason to deconvert from your PRIVATE beliefs you will haveto provide your PRIVATE anwsers to why.
I can only suggest you start with anwsers to why you do not believe in Allah
Because the Koran is not like the Bible, it cannot sustain itself by its internal evidences, in the nature of historical and archaeological support and especially in doctrine.
It apprears to be a bunch of random spiritual ideas strung together, with very little unity
The unity of doctrine and theme is one of the Bibles supports as being from God
Example:
- God sometimes anwser prayers, sometimes he does not, and sometimes he makes you wait. Well the milk carton does the same.
- God is invisible and undetectable and can bend the universe to his will, Well the milk carton is visable tough his powers are as invisable as your god and he can bend the universe to his will.
-God loves me. Well the milk carton loves you too and it is sad because you do not believe in him.
And any other reason you have for believing in god apply it to the milk carton with the same logic as you apply it to god.
You might have a point if it were not for design and articulation in design and direct revelation.
Hey other than that you might have a point
You were a bit general in your response as to why I should deconvert, perhaps you could narrow it down a bit. Be a bit more specific
And any other reason you have for believing in god apply it to the milk carton with the same logic as you apply it to god.
As fortune would have it and while I dont worship the milk carton as I would God, I have a very good relationship with the carton/s in my house
There alittle embarrasing to take places, but I stand behind my decision to love them and make them a part of the family
They dont come along willingly like the dogs, you have to drag them places.
I see the looks and laughter from the neighbors, but I stand beside my decision to love them as anyother family member
Im sure there is any number of wacked out talk show host that could help with this problem, I simply dont have the time at present
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by frako, posted 12-12-2010 7:54 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 9:59 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 67 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:32 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-13-2010 11:34 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 72 by frako, posted 12-13-2010 3:58 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 62 of 566 (596116)
12-13-2010 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 9:06 AM


Because the Koran is not like the Bible, it cannot sustain itself by its internal evidences, in the nature of historical and archaeological support and especially in doctrine.
It apprears to be a bunch of random spiritual ideas strung together, with very little unity
The unity of doctrine and theme is one of the Bibles supports as being from God
So looking at the Bible and seeing that it does not have a unity of doctrine and theme would be a sufficient reason to deconvert?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:06 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 10:14 AM jar has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 63 of 566 (596117)
12-13-2010 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
12-13-2010 9:59 AM


So looking at the Bible and seeing that it does not have a unity of doctrine and theme would be a sufficient reason to deconvert?
Is this a sickness you fellas have, or is it just a common practice amoung non-believers. Specifics fellas, Specifics.
Where is the lack of harmony and unity in the scriptures?????????? (For Subbie) Im putting a bunch of question marks here, incase I forget later
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 9:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by dwise1, posted 12-13-2010 10:21 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 65 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 10:40 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5991
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 64 of 566 (596119)
12-13-2010 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 10:14 AM


Please learn how to read, Dawn
jar's question was in the conditional mood -- "would" is the indication. He was not making a statement that there is a lack of "unity of doctrine and theme" in the Bible, but rather asking whether your test for rejecting the Koran would also be sufficient test for whether you should also reject the Bible.
Dawn, yet again you demonstrate an inability to understand what is written. If you have any GI Bill benefits remaining, please enroll in remedial English classes, but for reading comprehension and for writing. Even if you have already burned up all your bennies, enroll anyway. You really need it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 10:14 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 5:15 PM dwise1 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 65 of 566 (596123)
12-13-2010 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 10:14 AM


Can you read.
jar writes:
So looking at the Bible and seeing that it does not have a unity of doctrine and theme would be a sufficient reason to deconvert?
Dawn Bertot writes:
Is this a sickness you fellas have, or is it just a common practice amoung non-believers. Specifics fellas, Specifics.
Where is the lack of harmony and unity in the scriptures?????????? (For Subbie) Im putting a bunch of question marks here, incase I forget later
Dawn Bertot
You may well claim that there is some "unity of doctrine and theme" in the Bible, but that is simply your personal view.
If, for example, I look at the Bible and see that it is just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures and that there is no "unity of doctrine and theme", would that be sufficient reason for me to throw the beliefs you try to market away?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 10:14 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 7:15 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 66 of 566 (596124)
12-13-2010 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Dawn Bertot
12-12-2010 7:30 PM


Dawn Bertot writes:
Ive read the entirity of the posts and I have failed to see a valid 'reason' offered as to why I should deconvert from the things I have studied and been taught through the years.
The OP doesn't say anything about convincing you. I don't think anybody here would try to convince you that water is wet. What people are telling you in this thread is what convinced them.
As I mentioned earlier, I simply don't believe that the Bible is true or that the doctrines that are pasted into the Bible are true or valuable. I don't pray to the God of the Bible for the same reason that I don't write letters to Santa Claus.
You can feel free to try to convince me that a children's story is true.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-12-2010 7:30 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:35 AM ringo has replied
 Message 79 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 7:18 PM ringo has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(1)
Message 67 of 566 (596126)
12-13-2010 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 9:06 AM


scriptural unity
hi Dawn,
Because the Koran is not like the Bible, it cannot sustain itself by its internal evidences,
from what i understand, and i've only begun reading the quran, there's little question that it was written by a single person. this alone, if true, would grant it far more unity in thought and message than the bible, which had approximately 100 authors, living over the course of close to a 1000 years.
i understand scriptural unity is probably a sticking point for you, but the idea that someone can actually read and understand the bible and come away with such an idea is just sort of silly. surely you've noticed there is a new testament and old testament, and they are decidedly different in tone? surely you've noticed that paul advises against covenants that were previously mandatory? let's set contradictions and such aside for now -- surely you noticed that the theology changed at some point, right?
The unity of doctrine and theme is one of the Bibles supports as being from God
as i mentioned earlier, the surest path to atheism is in truly studying the bible. and notions like this are exactly the reason why. once you actually commit to studying it, in depth, openly and honestly, you will find that this unity of doctrine and theme stuff is nonsense. for a lot of believers, this is absolutely faith-shattering.
for me, i think the collection of different human voices, different messages and meanings, is the very thing that makes the bible beautiful, and that trying to fit it all through this unity filter gets rid of the truly interesting parts. it's a bit like a gourmet seven course meal -- you want to enjoy the distinct flavours of each part of the meal. you wouldn't want to throw it all in a blender and hit "puree" so that you can drink it through a straw.
when i was younger, that's part of why i found the bible daunting and uninteresting. 1500 pages of sameness? i'll pass. surely god could get his message out in a shorter and more clear way. turns out that i was just rejecting the slop that this unity doctrine had turned it into.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:06 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 7:26 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 401 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 68 of 566 (596127)
12-13-2010 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 9:06 AM


Because the Koran is not like the Bible, it cannot sustain itself by its internal evidences, in the nature of historical and archaeological support ...
Well of course it doesn't. The Koran's got all this crazy stuff in it about fictional characters like Adam and Eve, their supposed children Cain and Abel, some guy called Noah who survived some sort of mythical flood, an imaginary wizard called Moses who parted the Red Sea (as if!), some chap called David who allegedly killed someone called Goliath, some bloke called Jonah who's supposed to have lived inside a whale, and some chappie called Jesus who healed the blind and the leprous and raised the dead.
Obviously there's no historical or archaeological support for any of this.
Now, you were saying how the Koran was different from the Bible? Pray continue with your most interesting narrative.
... and especially in doctrine.
It apprears to be a bunch of random spiritual ideas strung together, with very little unity
The unity of doctrine and theme is one of the Bibles supports as being from God
Have you ever read the Bible?
Sheesh.
(I need not, I think, bother asking if you've read the Koran.)
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:06 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 7:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 69 of 566 (596128)
12-13-2010 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
12-13-2010 11:17 AM


ringo writes:
You can feel free to try to convince me that a children's story is true.
i think that's a little harsh. surely, the contents of the bible weren't entirely meant for children. i mean, there's rape and genocide, incest, all kinds of things you shouldn't expose children to.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 12-13-2010 11:17 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 12-13-2010 1:04 PM arachnophilia has not replied
 Message 71 by bluescat48, posted 12-13-2010 1:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 566 (596147)
12-13-2010 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 11:35 AM


arachnophilia writes:
surely, the contents of the bible weren't entirely meant for children.
I'm not the one who's lumping it all together. We're being handed The Cat in the Hat and The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and Breakfast at Tiffany's and we're being asked to believe all of it.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:35 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 71 of 566 (596152)
12-13-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by arachnophilia
12-13-2010 11:35 AM


i think that's a little harsh. surely, the contents of the bible weren't entirely meant for children. i mean, there's rape and genocide, incest, all kinds of things you shouldn't expose children to.
In reality, those things shouldn't be exposed to adults. There is more than enough genocide, rape , incest and other evils in reality. We don't need reinforcement in Biblical stories, through which some have attempted to justify that evil.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 11:35 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 6:57 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 72 of 566 (596167)
12-13-2010 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 9:06 AM


Because the Koran is not like the Bible, it cannot sustain itself by its internal evidences, in the nature of historical and archaeological support and especially in doctrine.
My guess is you have never read the Koran, it is about 85-90% the same as the bible.
And the bible can sustain itself on archaeological evidence i would really like to see that evidence.
And is totaly consistent there are no things in it that contradict itself like:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.
GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.
......
and lots more
You might have a point if it were not for design and articulation in design and direct revelation.
The milk carton has reveald himself to you by direct revelation how can you doubt his power, and he is the one who designed the universe.
I said apply all your logic that makes you belive in god to the milk carton or something as silly as the milk carton it is one way that your eyes can be opend and you can see that you are only deluding yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:06 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by arachnophilia, posted 12-13-2010 7:00 PM frako has replied
 Message 86 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 8:01 PM frako has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 200 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 73 of 566 (596178)
12-13-2010 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by dwise1
12-13-2010 10:21 AM


Re: Please learn how to read, Dawn
Jar writes
So looking at the Bible and seeing that it does not have a unity of doctrine and theme would be a sufficient reason to deconvert?
Dewise writes:
jar's question was in the conditional mood -- "would" is the indication. He was not making a statement that there is a lack of "unity of doctrine and theme" in the Bible, but rather asking whether your test for rejecting the Koran would also be sufficient test for whether you should also reject the Bible.
So when jar says that it DOES NOT have a unity of doctrine, when looking at it, (the Bible), that does not mean to you that he thinks it does not?
My guess is that he does not think that it does. Dewise, you have learned some reading and writing skills, now learn some debating skills.
Perhaps you could quit trying to impress everyone with your grammatical skills and contribute to the subject by doing some actual debating
You've never been a part of any formal debate have you, Dewise?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by dwise1, posted 12-13-2010 10:21 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 12-13-2010 5:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 102 by dwise1, posted 12-14-2010 1:00 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 74 of 566 (596181)
12-13-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dawn Bertot
12-13-2010 5:15 PM


Re: Please learn how to read, Dawn
You might try actually addressing the questions.
quote:
You may well claim that there is some "unity of doctrine and theme" in the Bible, but that is simply your personal view.
If, for example, I look at the Bible and see that it is just a collection of writings on a variety of subjects addressed to people of different eras and cultures and that there is no "unity of doctrine and theme", would that be sufficient reason for me to throw the beliefs you try to market away?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 5:15 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10198
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 75 of 566 (596186)
12-13-2010 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Dawn Bertot
12-12-2010 7:30 PM


Ive read the entirity of the posts and I have failed to see a valid 'reason' offered as to why I should deconvert from the things I have studied and been taught through the years.
Then we can only ask why you converted to begin with, and if those reasons are still valid.
To make a very large generalization, for most atheists with a religious background a disbelief precedes the deconversion. The deconversion is the unavoidable consequence of not believing what you have studied and been taught over the years.
What specificallly bothers or concerns you about its doctrine.?
It's not a matter of doctrine bothering us. To use an analogy, does it bother you that Santa Claus is said to use flying reindeer? I would not describe that as bothersome, just something that I don't believe in.
If you could show us compelling evidence then we would believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-12-2010 7:30 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-13-2010 9:23 PM Taq has replied

  
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